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| What kind of smoking provision are you for? |
| Complete smoking ban in any public place with bans in private clubs and bars also |
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42% |
[ 21 ] |
| Ban in public places but bars with 'smoking licenses' allowed |
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20% |
[ 10 ] |
| Bars etc with smoking and non smoking sections |
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22% |
[ 11 ] |
| I'll smoke wherever the heck I like. |
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16% |
[ 8 ] |
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| Total Votes : 50 |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And since when is something 'providing a good' the justification for making it legal?
Soda should be banned then as well. It provides zero good (no nutrition, does not quench thirst) and plenty of bad (energy expended to produce it, health care cost rising obesity, plastic bottles, trash, etc.).
Let's ban soda.
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I just quoted this part of your post because it is something we have gone over before several times now.
Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it
Cigarette smoke hurts everyone around the smoker.
If you want to drink soda, drink all you want. If you want to smoke don't do it around me.
In other words people are not against other people harming themselves they are against other people harming THEM.
Big difference.
Besides which if I want to drink soda and eat McDonalds that is MY choice...a choice I made out of free will. On the other hand a smoker who sits down near me and lights up is inflicting HIS choice on me.
Again big difference. If I choose to put unhealthy foods in my body that is a choice I made. That does not in any way negate the fact that I should be able to choose not to inhale carcinogens. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Cigarettes should be outlawed. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And I'm sorry but if you're going to throw out 'societal damage' you can't run away when alcohol's social costs are pointed out. It's fair game at that point.
Clearly it's not about the rationale, it's about your preference. If you were going by rationale you would support the banning of alcohol. Instead its "This sin I enjoy, so it's okay. This other sin I don't enjoy so it's wrong.
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I don't think anyone is actually really taking that position, though. Alcohol is restricted in numerous ways in the United States:
1) Many establishments are not allowed to sell alcohol at all.
2) Establishments that do serve alcohol are required by law to confirm that the purchaser is over 21 years of age.
3) It is illegal to operate a vehicle after consuming a certain amount of alcohol.
4) Public drunkenness is against the law in many muncipalities. Note that this is even enforcable in bars.
Because the dangers of alcohol differ from the dangers of smoking, they are addressed through different means, but they are none the less addressed, and fairly thoroughly.
I don't think that it's fair to say, "Alcohol and smoking both cause some potential problems, so they must be delt with in the exact same fashion." They may both cause potential problems, but they're different problems, and thus warrant different solutions. Use of alcohol in publically traversed spaces has been regulated for quite some time; if anything, public smoking bans are just catching smoking up to where alcohol all ready was: regulated by the government with regards to public usage. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it |
The production of soda- sure hurts me with its car exhaust and factory emissions.
Not to mention my health care costs and waiting times skyrocket thanks to all the obese people who've been raised up to drink a drum of pop everyday.
| Quote: |
| Besides which if I want to drink soda and eat McDonalds that is MY choice...a choice I made out of free will. On the other hand a smoker who sits down near me and lights up is inflicting HIS choice on me. |
But it was your choice, your own free will to enter that establishment and put yourself in a situation where that smoker could sit down next to you.
There is a simple way to avoid that- don't enter the restaurant.
That is where your choice and free will is.
And again if we are talking about the harm factor- Car exhaust. It has produced effects that make smoking look insignificant.
It's societal benefit nowhere near compensates for that destruction. If not banning cars, then by the anti-smoking logic we should make any non-essential use of the automobile illegal. No more using it for cruises or to visit entertainment facilities. Just work, errands, and thats it.
Non-drivers should not be forced to endure people's exhaust and mercury from their batteries.
OR we come to the conclusion of live and let live- People can still drive cars and smokers can still smoke inside restaurants. After all NO ONE FORCES YOU TO ENTER THE RESTAURANT.
That point is still dodged.
| Quote: |
| Because the dangers of alcohol differ from the dangers of smoking, they are addressed through different means, but they are none the less addressed, and fairly thoroughly. |
Well you're right that they shouldn't be addressed in the same manner. But smoking IS addressed and as I've said before, needs to be addressed more in the form of TRULY public space outdoor bans.
But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. People choose to expose themselves to smoke when they enter. Clubs and Bars do not permit entry by minors after a certain hour. Clubs often have a cover charge. They are not public spaces. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. |
Well, I've all ready clarified how I'm using the term "public space" here, and neither ownership nor whether one is forced to enter has anything to do with it. What matters to me -- and, I believe, to many opponents of "public smoking" -- is what is allowed in spaces frequently traversed by the public, regardless of who might own them.
I think there's a fundamental difference between an average restaurant and a private residence, one that warrants different standards applying. You don't seem to agree, and that's fine; resolution of such disagreements is a large portion of the reason local law exists in the first place. It's worth noting at this point we're not even truly discussing smoking bans, but rather how to classify spaces which are privately owned but regularly publically traversed, a conversation which has implications far beyond merely who can smoke where. |
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LGSakers
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| LDJS wrote: |
Just showed yourself for the immature, name calling, discourteous poster you are.
Told you I was good at that didn't I?
About 25 minutes or so, wouldn't you say?
See ya. |
Here are a few point of you being immature, name calling, and discourteous in this thread:
| LDJS wrote: |
| I really think there are a lot of things in life that you 'don't get.' S#x most likely being one of them lol. |
| LDJS wrote: |
| We really didn't 'get over it.' We just ignored it and continue to do it anyway. |
| LDJS wrote: |
| All that heat just to arrive at such a simple conclusion |
| LDJS wrote: |
My position has been made, is clear and I have no need to keep reiterating it, unlike some.
Keep it up. |
| LDJS wrote: |
| Nice to see not every one wants to force their will or viewpoint on others. |
Just sayin...
As for the smoking bans and such... I personally feel it is unnecessary to smoke in public places. The reason is fairly simple: If I have to be stuck somewhere that smoking is happening, I am going to be inhaling this stuff. I understand that there are obviously different scenarios, but I should realistically be able to enter a bar and not have to worry about inhaling the stuff.
In my hometown in Canada, some bars have areas for smokers. It is an outside part of the bar, and people have no issue using it. You toss on a jacket and go. The smoke rises and leaves the area, so it doesn't really enter the bar... Makes sense. |
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LDJS
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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...I should realistically be able to enter a bar and not have to worry about inhaling the stuff.
As a smoker I full heartedly agree with you there.
In my hometown in Canada, some bars have areas for smokers. It is an outside part of the bar, and people have no issue using it. You toss on a jacket and go. The smoke rises and leaves the area, so it doesn't really enter the bar... Makes sense.
But here's my problem. It may make sense to you but it doesn't to me. May convenince you, but incoveniences me. I don't want to have to put my jacket on and slink outside in the rain like a naughty dog to have a smoke at a bar on a rainy day. Going to a seperate well ventilated and regulalry maintained section of the bar, I am fine with. Bars having to apply for smoking licenses and being very noticeably advertise as smoking bars I am fine with.
But you will not banish me to a dirty, cold rainy corner like a naughty mutt. I have the right to either a bar for those like me or a section of the public bar for those like me.
This mutt for one would start barking, clawing and biting if anyone treid to force such an undignified position upon him.
I know this is in effect in my home country, the UK but luckilly I live in Korea and next on the list is Andalucia. Both homes to people where EVEN IF the ban is enacted they will just laugh and do it anyway.
But you'll find most smokers don;t want to subject anyone unwilling to their smoke. Give us a NICE corner of the place or a ncie place of our own and we'll be fine. Seriously. Anyone who has been to the Coffee Bean in Itaewon willl testify that in the main area you cannot smell the smoke from the smoking section. We have the technology these days to enact logical solutions that suit multiple tastes and prefernces.
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LGSakers
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LDJS wrote: |
| But here's my problem. It may make sense to you but it doesn't to me. May convenince you, but incoveniences me. I don't want to have to put my jacket on and slink outside in the rain like a naughty dog to have a smoke at a bar on a rainy day. Going to a seperate well ventilated and regulalry maintained section of the bar, I am fine with. Bars having to apply for smoking licenses and being very noticeably advertise as smoking bars I am fine with. |
Well, all of these bars have roofs just with vents outside. It's a neat set-up... Really easy for the smoke to leave, very hard for rain or snow to enter... Plus there are big heaters.
| Quote: |
But you will not banish me to a dirty, cold rainy corner like a naughty mutt. I have the right to either a bar for those like me or a section of the public bar for those like me.
This mutt for one would start barking, clawing and biting if anyone treid to force such an undignified position upon him. |
You said I would be inconveniencing you... but I wouldn't be. You are the one who chooses to smoke and bring it inside. Not me. I have the right to healthy air. You have the right to choose to abstain from healthy air so long as it doesn't cause damage to me. So really, you smoking is only inconveniencing yourself.
| Quote: |
But you'll find most smokers don;t want to subject anyone unwilling to their smoke. Give us a NICE corner of the place or a ncie place of our own and we'll be fine. Seriously. Anyone who has been to the Coffee Bean in Itaewon willl testify that in the main area you cannot smell the smoke from the smoking section. We have the technology these days to enact logical solutions that suit multiple tastes and prefernces.[/b]
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[/quote]I am down with this, really. But like I said, the outside one is a solid choice. It just needs to be done correctly, and that way the smoke doesn't linger in the bar. But, either way, I am cool with both. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it |
The production of soda- sure hurts me with its car exhaust and factory emissions.
But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. People choose to expose themselves to smoke when they enter. Clubs and Bars do not permit entry by minors after a certain hour. Clubs often have a cover charge. They are not public spaces. |
You can simply avoid the areas in which the factories are located. Unlike smokers they are not mobile and can not walk into a restaurant after you and start puffing out smoke.
Your point fails.
If I walk into a restaurant and there is no smoke and I order a meal and then someone comes in and lights up he should walk outside as well. If I'm not supposed to enter a restaurant where there is smoke he shouldn't be allowed to allow a restaurant to create it either.
Anyway this point is moot. Korea is moving in this direction and will eventually ban smoke in these areas as well. Enjoy it while it lasts. |
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LDJS
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it |
The production of soda- sure hurts me with its car exhaust and factory emissions.
But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. People choose to expose themselves to smoke when they enter. Clubs and Bars do not permit entry by minors after a certain hour. Clubs often have a cover charge. They are not public spaces. |
You can simply avoid the areas in which the factories are located. Unlike smokers they are not mobile and can not walk into a restaurant after you and start puffing out smoke.
Your point fails.
If I walk into a restaurant and there is no smoke and I order a meal and then someone comes in and lights up he should walk outside as well. If I'm not supposed to enter a restaurant where there is smoke he shouldn't be allowed to allow a restaurant to create it either.
Anyway this point is moot. Korea is moving in this direction and will eventually ban smoke in these areas as well. Enjoy it while it lasts. |
Myth, you know the lay of the land in Korea (outside of Seoul / bundang, maybe Ilsan.)
Drunk driving is banned - every one still does it, cops do nowt about it.
Littering, same.
Driving without licenses - same.
Traffic lights.
I could labour the point with more examples, but no need to go further.
Having been here a while do you honestly think a 60 year old adjoishi who's on his 7th bottle of soju with his village friend of 50 years in a shiktang is going to react with anything other than a chuckle and a dismissive wave of the hand if anyone - even the owner - asks him to put his cigarette out?
Now, I'm not saying he is right; I maintain non smokers should NOT be subjected to smoker's smoke.
But my track here is not to debate the ethics of the proposed ban, rather whether it will actually be effective.
Realistically, come on man, it will take effect maybe in Seoul, maybe in Bundang, but not anywhere outside of inner Gyeonggi....
That's why I still have faith in my decision to go to Andalucia, can't see the Spaniards there giving in to that one... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| LDJS wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it |
The production of soda- sure hurts me with its car exhaust and factory emissions.
But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. People choose to expose themselves to smoke when they enter. Clubs and Bars do not permit entry by minors after a certain hour. Clubs often have a cover charge. They are not public spaces. |
You can simply avoid the areas in which the factories are located. Unlike smokers they are not mobile and can not walk into a restaurant after you and start puffing out smoke.
Your point fails.
If I walk into a restaurant and there is no smoke and I order a meal and then someone comes in and lights up he should walk outside as well. If I'm not supposed to enter a restaurant where there is smoke he shouldn't be allowed to allow a restaurant to create it either.
Anyway this point is moot. Korea is moving in this direction and will eventually ban smoke in these areas as well. Enjoy it while it lasts. |
Myth, you know the lay of the land in Korea (outside of Seoul / bundang, maybe Ilsan.)
Drunk driving is banned - every one still does it, cops do nowt about it.
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Every so often the cops set up a drunk driving checkpoint on this road or that one. I've seen people taken away in handcuffs while the wife and kids are hysterically crying. Come on, you've been in Korea for how long and have never seen once of these checkpoints? I've seen dozens of these over the years. Korea is getting tougher on drunk drivers. It is improving even from where it was when I first came over.
Of course there is a possibility you may be right...but given that Korea tends to emulate the West in certain regards (like drunk driving) they may enforce this one like they do with drunk drivers. At least there will be a law...that's the first step. |
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LDJS
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| LDJS wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Soda hurts no one except the person consuming it |
The production of soda- sure hurts me with its car exhaust and factory emissions.
But restaurants, clubs and bars are not public spaces. Especially clubs. No one is forced to enter them. People choose to expose themselves to smoke when they enter. Clubs and Bars do not permit entry by minors after a certain hour. Clubs often have a cover charge. They are not public spaces. |
You can simply avoid the areas in which the factories are located. Unlike smokers they are not mobile and can not walk into a restaurant after you and start puffing out smoke.
Your point fails.
If I walk into a restaurant and there is no smoke and I order a meal and then someone comes in and lights up he should walk outside as well. If I'm not supposed to enter a restaurant where there is smoke he shouldn't be allowed to allow a restaurant to create it either.
Anyway this point is moot. Korea is moving in this direction and will eventually ban smoke in these areas as well. Enjoy it while it lasts. |
Myth, you know the lay of the land in Korea (outside of Seoul / bundang, maybe Ilsan.)
Drunk driving is banned - every one still does it, cops do nowt about it.
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Every so often the cops set up a drunk driving checkpoint on this road or that one. I've seen people taken away in handcuffs while the wife and kids are hysterically crying. Come on, you've been in Korea for how long and have never seen once of these checkpoints? I've seen dozens of these over the years. Korea is getting tougher on drunk drivers. It is improving even from where it was when I first came over.
Of course there is a possibility you may be right...but given that Korea tends to emulate the West in certain regards (like drunk driving) they may enforce this one like they do with drunk drivers. At least there will be a law...that's the first step. |
I live in Jeolla nam do. It's basically the Wild West without guns or Audie Murphy.
Add confucian culture - WHO exactly is going to have the kahonies to ask that 60 yr old Adjoishi to not smoke?
I see it workng to an extent in Seoul, Bundang, Ilsan. But out here? Man, the stories I can tell of the things that fly out here...! |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Tobacco and liquor are for real men only. People who want to go to some *beep* smoke-free bar should be restricted to american lagers and sugary bitch drinks. I wear my whisky and pipe like decorations of war.
PS: They shouldn't be allowed to eat ribs either: ribs are also for real men. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
Tobacco and liquor are for real men only. People who want to go to some *beep* smoke-free bar should be restricted to american lagers and sugary bitch drinks. I wear my whisky and pipe like decorations of war.
PS: They shouldn't be allowed to eat ribs either: ribs are also for real men. |
Urg. Grog like Koveras. Urg! Me like rib too. Now me go hit woman over head with club and take back to cave. URG!!! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
You can simply avoid the areas in which the factories are located. Unlike smokers they are not mobile and can not walk into a restaurant after you and start puffing out smoke.
Your point fails.
If I walk into a restaurant and there is no smoke and I order a meal and then someone comes in and lights up he should walk outside as well. If I'm not supposed to enter a restaurant where there is smoke he shouldn't be allowed to allow a restaurant to create it either.
Anyway this point is moot. Korea is moving in this direction and will eventually ban smoke in these areas as well. Enjoy it while it lasts. |
Actually the decision isn't up to you.
It's not your restaurant.
It's the owner's. If the owner wants to invite someone in and let them smoke, who are you to say no?
Especially if there is no "No Smoking" sign up there.
The restaurant is always "Smoking" unless it has a non-smoking sign.
You chose to enter and run the risk of smoke exposure. You could have just gone to another restaurant or not dined out at all.
No one forces you to dine out. No one forced you to choose that restaurant. That restaurant is not yours. It is not your place to decide what kind of clientele is welcome.
You had your chance to not be around smoke, you gave that up when you entered the restaurant. |
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