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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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So, you're a taxi driver sitting in your car. A blur of orange punches you and makes off with your cash. You come out of the car, see a guy wearing orate standing right there, and say "he robbed me!"
The guy in orange says it "wasn't me". The cops say 'too bad', get in the car. Guy in orange then gets mad at being falsely accused, and kicks the shit outta' the car.
Actually, sounds pretty plausible to me. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Thanks for the update. So, assuming the accuracy of the hearing notes, the only concrete thing is that he damaged a police car. Wrong and stupid to do but somewhat understandable if you were falsely accused of robbing someone and being arrested for it.
Assuming the ambuguity of the cctv (I wish we had a chance to view it), his guilt of robbing the guy is unclear. My quesiton is if the assailant an all orange hoodie and his was orange and black, wouldn't that go a long way to exonerate him? Similar is not same.
Until I there is more concrete evidence, I personally think his guilt is very questionable and probably falsely accused. If I were on a jury I wouldn't convict based on what I have read so far. There is not even preponderance of evidence against him imho. I question the eye witness account of the taxi driver. It seems he was mistaken. It could very well turn out Fisher is guilty but not from what I've read so far. |
I agree with this.
Eyewitness identification is usually the least reliable form of evidence. Especially in an incident like this.
Could Fisher have done it? Certainly possible. But from a 'juror viewpoint' there isn't enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt, aside from the vehicle damage. However kicking the police car should be negotiated into time served and a fine.
As for taxi drivers and education and sophistication... Seriously? Seriously? What do you expect? MBA holders and philosophers?
You do realize that drivers with those qualities end up getting employed as chauffeurs right?
Why does the riff-raff expect to be treated like the upper-crust?
You want a sophisticated cabbie? Shell out the extra man-wons and get a limo service. Otherwise you are going to get a minimum-wager.
Back home all the cabbies were drug dealers looking for a way to report some income, ex-felons, junkies who could semi-hold it together, and H.S. dropouts.
Sorry but anyone who graduated from college would feel too entitled to lower themselves to being a cab driver. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Until I there is more concrete evidence, I personally think his guilt is very questionable and probably falsely accused. If I were on a jury I wouldn't convict based on what I have read so far. There is not even preponderance of evidence against him imho. I question the eye witness account of the taxi driver. It seems he was mistaken. It could very well turn out Fisher is guilty but not from what I've read so far. |
I could take everything I've read on Dave's and conclude that he is guilty. He was wearing an orange hoody matching the description of the suspect, which is a fairly unusual piece of clothing. He was positively identified by the victim. He has shown he is a violent person. There is video footage of someone matching his description. Etc.
Point is, no one here witnessed the crime and you can't say that he's innocent any more than I can say he's guilty. However, making wild accusations like the taxi driver was mistaken is simply not helpful and adds to the FUD. |
If we are using the hearing notes as fact. You are wrong when you say 'matching hoodie'. Similar. The taxi driver said orange and he was wearing orange and black. Not the same. You are also changing the video evidence. The notes say it was grainy and not indentifiable. How do you conclude it was him?
Second, Illinois supseneded death penalties because some were on death row wrongly and they found that some had eyewitness identification.
Third, I'm not one to side with the westerner first. I've seen drunk wayguks that have are embarassing. I've personally went up and apologized on behalf of the foreigner community to Koreans who I witnessed from a distance being rudely treated by wayguks. However, I've also been the victim of drunk ajoshis as well.
Fourth, reacting to being falsely accused is not the same as being violent. Tons of otherwise peaceful people react verbally abusive when accused. Tons of otherwise peaceful people react physically to some department store or mall security guy who physically try to detain them after being accused of stealing. That happens very often in America. I'm not justifying Fisher's reaction to being arrested but its not necessarily the sign of a guilty man. In fact, it could be the sign of an innocent man falsely accused.
Fifth, people are falsely imprisioned all the time, even in a country like America which purports to have the best criminal investigative technology and a rule of law we like to brag about. Is Korea any better? The Korean judge may have honestly concluded he was guilty. Fisher may in fact be guilty. I don't think anyone on this thread is claiming that possibility. What I am saying is there is more than enough reasonable doubt based on what we know. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
If we are using the hearing notes as fact. You are wrong when you say 'matching hoodie'. Similar. The taxi driver said orange and he was wearing orange and black. Not the same. You are also changing the video evidence. The notes say it was grainy and not indentifiable. How do you conclude it was him? |
Again, you are missing the point. I can't conclude it's him any more than you can conclude it's not him. You are twisting the facts to fit what you want to see just like I twisted the facts to show how else they could be interpreted.
As a lawyer I've had to sit in my fair share of cases. What you hear reported is typically only a TINY, TINY fraction of what goes on behind the scenes. I bet the prosecution and defense have large files detailing a helluva lot more than we'll ever know about the case. Consequently, we aren't in the best position to make any definitive judgments about this man's innocence or guilt. |
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DaHu
Joined: 09 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| So he admits kicking the car and beating it up? He deserves prison time, and is obviously guilty since he can't control himself. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
If we are using the hearing notes as fact. You are wrong when you say 'matching hoodie'. Similar. The taxi driver said orange and he was wearing orange and black. Not the same. You are also changing the video evidence. The notes say it was grainy and not indentifiable. How do you conclude it was him? |
Again, you are missing the point. I can't conclude it's him any more than you can conclude it's not him. You are twisting the facts to fit what you want to see just like I twisted the facts to show how else they could be interpreted.
As a lawyer I've had to sit in my fair share of cases. What you hear reported is typically only a TINY, TINY fraction of what goes on behind the scenes. I bet the prosecution and defense have large files detailing a helluva lot more than we'll ever know about the case. Consequently, we aren't in the best position to make any definitive judgments about this man's innocence or guilt. |
I am not saying its not him. Maybe we are making the same point. If the video is inconclusive and he was convicted based partially on the judge believing the video was him then its wrong.
We all agree there is more to the story than what is being reported. 'Most of us including myself have said as much. Based on what little we know his conviction is puzzling to many of us.
If you're asking us to believe that the things we are not hearing about should be taken as credible since he was convicted on it, then I'd strongly disagree. As a lawyer you should know that people get convicted wrongly on flimsy evidence all the time.
What facts am I twisting? I am not claiming he's innocent. I've even said he could be guilty as far as we know. However, the facts are that he was found guilty. That guilt based on what we know has given me (and others) enough reason to believe he may be innocent unless I hear or see other informaton. I am using the information we are all given and saying its inconclusive. It seems you're asking us to 'trust the Korean judicial system' that they got it right. I'm at a loss to see what point I'm missing or what I've twisted. I would be willing to guess that if a family member of yours was convicted on the same circumstances and all you know is what we have all been presented with I'm sure you'd be sending out petitions. As opposed to if he was convicted on a clear cctv tape with his face and features obvious and his clothing an exact NOT similar match. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| DaHu wrote: |
| So he admits kicking the car and beating it up? He deserves prison time, and is obviously guilty since he can't control himself. |
What specific damage did he do to a police car in addition to kicking it? I haven't heard specifics as well. Not smart to do on his part. He should be held responsible for that. However, if you're saying that its common to give anyone in Korea a 2 year sentence based on kicking a car then I have my doubts its so. It could be but I have my doutbs. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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From a thread that is locked. Thought I'd help julian_w out a tad and get the info over here and give this thread a little bump.
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Andre Fisher's appeal case judgement is going to be announced today at 2pm, in Supreme Court building room number 404.
If you do manage to go, please post a report back here as to what the results were, and what the whole time was like. I'm stuck at the other end of the country and can't make it, despite my interest. Thanks heaps, in advance!
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http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=210394 |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| litebear wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
Julian - thanks for the info tho like others I think it's best to just stick to this thread from now.
My thoughts? I grew up in a multiracial part of London. I am a white man with some distant Caribbean ancestry from one distant ancestor. I always had friends who were Black or Bi-Racial (Black father, white mother or reverse). I noted that if there was any kind of trouble in certain situations, there were people ready to finger them (say they were the guilty party) based on nothing more than stereotypes of race and ethnicity and discomfort with Black/Brown people.
I noted that Andrew is African/African American in appearance. Whether some of you out there like it or not, disgust for Black skin and fear of/hatred for Black/Coloured people is very much alive in the middle age/older/old Korean age groups especially among men.
It's fair to say that Korean taxi drivers generally are uneducated, in some areas and cities they are ex criminals and it makes no difference at all to their being allowed to drive cabs even in the case of convicted sex offenders being allowed to cruise around and take as passengers women and girls, and an obvious racism towards non Koreans has been apparent to me as well as other foreigners I know from too many taxi drivers.
I think this reeks of a suspect case - the taxi driver trying to skive off the case, the missing money Andrew supposedly stole. Generally I consider Korean taxi drivers to have an over representation of scumbags in their ranks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Andrew is the victim of one of these scumbags. |
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Yeah and ex-high school jocks that go to the army were all valedictorians... |
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Drew10
Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| litebear wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
Julian - thanks for the info tho like others I think it's best to just stick to this thread from now.
My thoughts? I grew up in a multiracial part of London. I am a white man with some distant Caribbean ancestry from one distant ancestor. I always had friends who were Black or Bi-Racial (Black father, white mother or reverse). I noted that if there was any kind of trouble in certain situations, there were people ready to finger them (say they were the guilty party) based on nothing more than stereotypes of race and ethnicity and discomfort with Black/Brown people.
I noted that Andrew is African/African American in appearance. Whether some of you out there like it or not, disgust for Black skin and fear of/hatred for Black/Coloured people is very much alive in the middle age/older/old Korean age groups especially among men.
It's fair to say that Korean taxi drivers generally are uneducated, in some areas and cities they are ex criminals and it makes no difference at all to their being allowed to drive cabs even in the case of convicted sex offenders being allowed to cruise around and take as passengers women and girls, and an obvious racism towards non Koreans has been apparent to me as well as other foreigners I know from too many taxi drivers.
I think this reeks of a suspect case - the taxi driver trying to skive off the case, the missing money Andrew supposedly stole. Generally I consider Korean taxi drivers to have an over representation of scumbags in their ranks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Andrew is the victim of one of these scumbags. |
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Yeah and ex-high school jocks that go to the army were all valedictorians... |
It's also safe to assume that the troops are a touch more educated than your average Korean taxi driver.
Not to mention taxi drivers are usually ex-cons...Can't say that about today's military considering they have to go through more background checks than your average E2 english "teacher". |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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I've met some highly educated Cab drivers before.
I met one MBA holder who was a VP at a Korean company. IMF happened and his company went belly up. Started driving a cab to make ends meet and has been doing it ever since.
I would say a lot of cab drivers in their late 40's early 50's were victims of the IMF crisis as well.
Assuming most cab drivers are uneducated is just as false as presuming all GI's are uneducated. I know quite a few friends back home who are smart and joined the military so that they could use the GI bill and go to college after. |
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Drew10
Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The GI Bill is a blessing for college these days.
while taking classes I get tuition + fees mostly taken care of, a book stipend, and a housing allowance paid monthly at the rate of E5 with dependents based on the location of my school.
Much better than a buddy of mine who is 100k+ in debt going for his masters. |
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Airborne9
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
I've met some highly educated Cab drivers before.
I met one MBA holder who was a VP at a Korean company. IMF happened and his company went belly up. Started driving a cab to make ends meet and has been doing it ever since.
I would say a lot of cab drivers in their late 40's early 50's were victims of the IMF crisis as well.
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Agreed, I've mat many who have worked for big companies in other countries and are now "retired" but cannot retire. Either because of financial reasons or just the way they are, always have to be working.
Of course i' not saying all taxi drivers are like this, but many are.
Oh what was the judgement in the end does anybody know? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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DaHu
Joined: 09 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'll post the answer HERE, so you don't have to be bombarded by his supporters (spelling errors are hers):
Jill Fisher
Just got info. from and educator/supporter that the orginal charges were upheld and Andre has been taken to serve the remainder of his two year sentence out in a Korean Prision...Thank you all for your love, prayers, and support. Please continue to pray that he makes it out in two years and is strong enough to sustain himself both mentally and physcially. Unfortunately, this is all my family and I can do/take...we will pray for him and correspond through letters.....but as for the "fight" it is gone..there is truly nothing more we can do. Thank you one and all...Jill and the Fisher Family |
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