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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, such an ignorant post... "encourage" students to be gay? Do you really think it is a choice to make? The OP links to a post which "researches" (aka creates propaganda) to spread their beliefs. I would take this "research" with a large grain of salt. We know that people can repress things, right? If everyone is telling someone to conform, they will do so. But deep inside, they are just doing it because others tell them to, not because they've actually changed. That's why you get so many people living a lie.
From what I've seen, it seems to me the people who are the most anti-gay seem to be less confident about their sexuality than those who accept gays as normal human beings. I think people are just afraid of something they do not understand, or perhaps afraid that they'll "become gay" as they have homosexual urges. Or maybe they think gayness is a disease which can spread. That's all just ignorant misconceptions.
I say to the haters -- go out, make some gay friends, and see if they really are so harmful, deviant, and evil. You will likely find that they are no more "bad" for society than heterosexuals. In fact, I think they are maybe even better for society as we need to reduce the population, which is straining the world's resources. And some people argue it is "not natural" even though it naturally occurs in practically every animal species we've seen. The whole anti-gay thing has been long debunked. It is time to start accepting them, even at a young age.
The scientific consensus on the matter is that being gay is not a disorder. It is a natural thing. Having talked to my gay friends, they say they started feeling attracted to others of the same sex very very early on. I can remember being attracted to the opposite sex very early on, even in elementary school. If I lived in a world of gay people, who said it was a norm to be gay, and treated me as a weirdo for being heterosexual, I would feel terrible. Furthermore, they would tell me what I feel is "not natural" and that I should start being homosexual. I'm sorry, but it's not possible to change what you are attracted to. I know what I like, and what I am attracted to. I can not possibly change: I'm hard-wired to like women, just as gay people are hard-wired to like the same gender. The only thing you can do is repress your true feelings.
Come on people, get over yourselves. Gay people deserve the exact same rights as we do, the whole hate-on for gays is just caused by out-dated beliefs. There is no evidence whatsoever that gays are bad for society, bad for morals, etc. Certain folks have a misconception that they are immoral. Ask yourself this then: why do so many of them want to get married and be monogamous? Why do so many wish to have a family? Are they out killing, looting, raping, and pillaging? I'd go out on a limb and say heterosexuals are far more dangerous, statistically, than homosexuals... especially concerning violence against people whom you do not agree with.
Also, ask yourselves this question. Why is it that when you correlate acceptance to gays to a society's level of advancement, the two totally correlate? One day people will look back at this time period and be appalled how people treated gays as "sick" individuals or lower-class members of society, or just plain evil, the same way we look back at the 1800s and earlier how people mistreated blacks or women.
The key here is education, tolerance, and understanding. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| While you may have only been "mindful" of your vocabulary's denotations, I'm quite sure you are very aware of their connotations... |
And I thought I was being explicit enough in saying that they're completely irrelevant. 'Retarded' has also fallen out of fashion, yet I still find the term more than adequate when used appropriately. Likewise, I try to use 'deviant' and 'aberrant' appropriately. Take offense if you like, but you'd be obtuse to do so. |
How are they irrelevant? Like it or not, connotations are a large part of any language. "Freak" is a perfectly acceptable synonym of "deviant", but I think you'd agree (at least I hope) that that is entirely inappropriate. There are also plenty of synonyms of "deviant" and "aberrant" with fewer or no negative connotations. Why not use those? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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To those that say that bullying is based on fear or discomfort or something like that I say, take off the liberal naive blinders about human nature.
People are bullied because our species in its primordial infancy learned that you can take what you need to survive by spotting those that are "weaker" and physically assault/intimidate them into giving you territory, mates and/or things.
That is the cold, brutal truth. The sooner we face up to the darker side of our human nature, the better we will be.
I know what fear looks like, believe me the bullies aren't afraid. It's the kid doing whack crap like hurting themselves on their bicycle so they don't have to go to school and be bullied that's afraid.
If we keep on with this "oh its the bullies who are afraid" nonsense we'll just end up with more bullying.
People who are bullied but cease to be bullied, this doesn't happen because the bully learns some sort of compassion. This happens because something happens with the bully to make them afraid of bullying that person. Usually it is the basic primitive response of being afraid that they'll get beat. Sometimes its the fear that their bullying will lead to exile from the group. All rooted in our survival instincts.
There is a term out there. It is called "a mark". Fact is, certain behaviors give people away as marks. This is what leads to bullying. It's hardwired into our brutal brains.
But please, cut the tender-hearted nonsense. Get a clue about our human nature. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
But please, cut the tender-hearted nonsense. Get a clue about our human nature. |
Although I agree with much of your last post, take a look at your quote above and let's see the problem with it. Part of human nature is caring for those weaker than ourselves. It comes from the mammalian need to care for our young.
So, yeah, you're right in one way: yes, there's a dark side to human nature. But there is also a bright side to it. And that could be translated as "tender-hearted nonsense." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
But please, cut the tender-hearted nonsense. Get a clue about our human nature. |
Although I agree with much of your last post, take a look at your quote above and let's see the problem with it. Part of human nature is caring for those weaker than ourselves. It comes from the mammalian need to care for our young.
So, yeah, you're right in one way: yes, there's a dark side to human nature. But there is also a bright side to it. And that could be translated as "tender-hearted nonsense." |
All of which is true for the 90% of us that are reasonable human beings. But there is that other 10%...They don't care about any of that or our moral judgments about them. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Likewise, I try to use 'deviant' and 'aberrant' appropriately. Take offense if you like, but you'd be obtuse to do so. |
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is impossible."
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| paynedaniel wrote: |
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| Not that I necessarily disagree, but do you have evidence to support this? Or is this another assumption along the lines of genetic sexuality? If sexual orientation is indeed linked to biological differences, it may actually be the case that homosexuals are biologically more prone to psychological issues. (Just thought experimentation here.) |
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/100/3/452
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There you have it: laws cause mental illness. Good find, Daniel!
| paynedaniel wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Not if it targets LGBT (what do you have against the Ts?) students specifically, no. |
The Article in the recommendation from the Seoul Department of Education only mentions discrimination based on sexual orientation. It does not mention transgendered students as far as I know. I would certainly support such an addition, however. |
The constantly expanding alphabet soup ends up being more isolating than inclusive.
| NovaKart wrote: |
| No one really knows what causes homosexuality |
What causes heterosexuality?
| brento1138 wrote: |
| From what I've seen, it seems to me the people who are the most anti-gay seem to be less confident about their sexuality than those who accept gays as normal human beings. I think people are just afraid of something they do not understand, or perhaps afraid that they'll "become gay" as they have homosexual urges. Or maybe they think gayness is a disease which can spread. That's all just ignorant misconceptions. |
We've seen this hundreds of times, that the most vocal against something are often caught engaging in the very thing they were railing against, e.g. Sen. Larry Craig who sponsored the Defense of Marriage Act limiting marriage to heterosexuals and then was busted in a public restroom for gay solicitation, and Rep. Mark Foley who sponsored the Adam Walsh Act against internet predators and then was forced to resign after emails soliciting sex from his male teen pages were revealed. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: ... |
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| All of which is true for the 90% of us that are reasonable human beings. But there is that other 10%...They don't care about any of that or our moral judgments about them. |
But I'm not too sure about a 90/10 split.
I see a lot of parallels between middle/high school and prison. You are either predator or prey, and a pecking order gets established. The worst bullies bully most everyone. Conversely, the kids at the bottom 10% are bullied by way more than just those at the top of the bully pyramid. The larger part of the school bullies those at the bottom simply to show that they are not at the bottom. Even the ones who don't bully do not stand up for those at the bottom because to do so risks being added to the bottom.
And I think there is an element of fear even if you're at the top of the pyramid. You have to maintain that position, or you have the furthest to fall. It can also be a coping response for inferiority in other areas. If you can't feel good about your grades, you can always become a hellion. Moreover, the number of bullies coming from bad homes where they bullied themselves has to be taken into consideration. If you're regularly getting beaten at home by someone twice your size, then you've got a way better chance when the field is level, not to mention some issues to work off.
But yes, you can also see the primal aspect of it. Apes, wolves, etc... It's our version of chest-beating and bum-sniffing. Fight or flight. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Gay rights for students in Seoul proposed |
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| john152 wrote: |
What bothers me about this ordinance is it could lead some schools to encourage students to be Gay . |
Encourge?
Face it, you're gay! Anybody who has this perspective is a closet homosexual.
Good to see you come out of the closet (albeit in a really bizzare way). |
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paynedaniel
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: geldedgoat? |
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| Geldelgoat, are you working your way through those resources you asked for and I provided back on page 3? |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:06 am Post subject: |
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I am not out to help the OP, but there is this: (sorry, no link)
Jones, S. L., & Yarhouse, M. A. (2011). A longitudinal study of attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 37, 404-427.
Abstract: The authors conducted a quasi-experimental longitudinal study spanning 6-7 years examining attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change from homosexual orientation to heterosexual orientation. An initial sample was formed of 72 men and 26 women who were involved in a variety of Christian ministries, with measures of sexual attraction, infatuation and fantasy, and composite measures of sexual orientation and psychological distress, administered longitudinally. Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process. The authors explore methodological limitations circumscribing generalizability of the findings and alternative explanations of the findings, such as sexual identity change or adjustment.
Now, I disagree with the OP and have not seen the above research replicated, but it is there. I have not read the complete article either, but I am guesing it will be refuted in short order. |
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paynedaniel
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: re: |
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| Ineverlie&I'malwaysri wrote: |
I am not out to help the OP, but there is this: (sorry, no link)
Jones, S. L., & Yarhouse, M. A. (2011). A longitudinal study of attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 37, 404-427.
Abstract: The authors conducted a quasi-experimental longitudinal study spanning 6-7 years examining attempted religiously mediated sexual orientation change from homosexual orientation to heterosexual orientation. An initial sample was formed of 72 men and 26 women who were involved in a variety of Christian ministries, with measures of sexual attraction, infatuation and fantasy, and composite measures of sexual orientation and psychological distress, administered longitudinally. Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process. The authors explore methodological limitations circumscribing generalizability of the findings and alternative explanations of the findings, such as sexual identity change or adjustment.
Now, I disagree with the OP and have not seen the above research replicated, but it is there. I have not read the complete article either, but I am guesing it will be refuted in short order. |
While there's certainly no doubt some individuals claim to be "converted" from homosexuality to heterosexuality, I think it's paramount to consider the motivations behind those claims, and a significant motivation is often religious. I speak from experience, having undergone conversion therapy and pretending that it worked - for a while. I did this because I wanted to belong to my family or origin and to the religious community that comprised so much of my life.
For studies dealing with these kinds of motivations in claimed success rates of conversion therapy, see the following:
Drescher, Jack; Zucker, Kenneth, eds. (2006), Ex-Gay Research: Analyzing the Spitzer Study and Its Relation to Science, Religion, Politics, and Culture, New York: Harrington Park Press.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0735-7028.33.3.249
I also think it is imperative to note Mark Yarhouse's previous and current institutional affiliations. He was affiliated with the private Christian college, Grove City College, and is affiliated with Pat Robertson's Regent University. Pat's the one who blamed 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina at least in part on homosexuals. Yarhouse said the following, "psychologists have an ethical responsibility to allow individuals to pursue treatment aimed at curbing experiences of same-sex attraction or modifying same-sex behaviors, not only because it affirms the client's rights to dignity, autonomy, and agency, as persons presumed capable of freely choosing among treatment modalities and behavior, but also because it demonstrates regard for diversity." This is a common tactic of Christian, anti-gay "academic" researchers, since I suppose it's quite an effective argumentative technique to throw political correct diversity language back in the face of the politically correct. It should be obvious, though, that he has little respect for true diversity, but rather is more concerned with faith-based sexual orientation conversion for religious reasons, not out of any regard for patient's rights.
Jack Drescher's response to this quote by Yarhouse seems appropriate: "any putative ethical obligation to refer a patient for reparative therapy is outweighed by a stronger ethical obligation to keep patients away from mental health practitioners who engage in questionable clinical practices." |
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paynedaniel
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: NARTH |
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Oh, and another little factual nugget about the supposedly secular (according to the OP) NARTH:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/narth/
Pay special attention to the quotes by Dr. Nicolosi, president of NARTH:
�We, as citizens, need to articulate God�s intent for human sexuality."
and
�When we live our God-given integrity and our human dignity, there is no space for sex with a guy.�
Secular my gay a**. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: Re: geldedgoat? |
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| paynedaniel wrote: |
| Geldelgoat, are you working your way through those resources you asked for and I provided back on page 3? |
I'm not dodging anything, I promise.  I've back in school stateside for several months now, and I got hit with three huge tests back-to-back on Halloween (these teachers are terrible people  ). I'll get around to posting a full response to all the comments either tonight or tomorrow. |
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paynedaniel
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: geldedgoat? |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| paynedaniel wrote: |
| Geldelgoat, are you working your way through those resources you asked for and I provided back on page 3? |
I'm not dodging anything, I promise. I've back in school stateside for several months now, and I got hit with three huge tests back-to-back on Halloween (these teachers are terrible people ). I'll get around to posting a full response to all the comments either tonight or tomorrow. |
Oh, well welcome back~ And I hope your test results are good. |
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