|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| The assertion was that this is something foreigners have invented to make Koreans look bad. This clearly isn't the case, considering that I've heard it from Koreans on many occasions. |
OK maybe that assertion was a little OTT, I'll hold my hands up to that as I want to give people credit and not discount anybodies experiences.
But I'm really curious about the conditions when people have heard it. I'm guessing it's usually from old Ajosshi types. Do they approach foreigners at random on the street, proclaiming Korea to be gay-free? Do they wear T-shirts with it printed on (bi-lingually)? Are people asking them for directions to the gay bar, only to be met with this kind of reply? Perhaps they are co-workers/family members (for the married posters)?
As a previous poster said, a lot could be lost in translation. If an old guy were to mumble, "No gay Korea," then it could mean a few different things. For example, it could mean, "I don't want/like gays in Korea." It could also mean, "No more gays in Korea please, we have enough." It could even mean, "I don't think Korea is a good place to be gay." I have heard Koreans express these feelings during my time here, primarily among my adult students and Korean friends. But as I've said before, I've never heard a Korean person say, "There are no gays in Korea." Just speculation on my part. |
This is how it happens pretty much every time: at a bar, older salaryman type start chatting (practicing his English?), asks my buddies if they are married. They say they're gay, adjossi proceeds to say that he's never met anyone gay before or that there aren't any gay people in Korea, usually in pretty solid English. We try to escape the situation as quickly as possible, for a variety of reasons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| tiger fancini wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| The assertion was that this is something foreigners have invented to make Koreans look bad. This clearly isn't the case, considering that I've heard it from Koreans on many occasions. |
OK maybe that assertion was a little OTT, I'll hold my hands up to that as I want to give people credit and not discount anybodies experiences.
But I'm really curious about the conditions when people have heard it. I'm guessing it's usually from old Ajosshi types. Do they approach foreigners at random on the street, proclaiming Korea to be gay-free? Do they wear T-shirts with it printed on (bi-lingually)? Are people asking them for directions to the gay bar, only to be met with this kind of reply? Perhaps they are co-workers/family members (for the married posters)?
As a previous poster said, a lot could be lost in translation. If an old guy were to mumble, "No gay Korea," then it could mean a few different things. For example, it could mean, "I don't want/like gays in Korea." It could also mean, "No more gays in Korea please, we have enough." It could even mean, "I don't think Korea is a good place to be gay." I have heard Koreans express these feelings during my time here, primarily among my adult students and Korean friends. But as I've said before, I've never heard a Korean person say, "There are no gays in Korea." Just speculation on my part. |
This is how it happens pretty much every time: at a bar, older salaryman type start chatting (practicing his English?), asks my buddies if they are married. They say they're gay, adjossi proceeds to say that he's never met anyone gay before or that there aren't any gay people in Korea, usually in pretty solid English. We try to escape the situation as quickly as possible, for a variety of reasons. |
You should offer to take him with you for a night out on the town and show him the reality. A few hours in Itaewon would probably change his mind!
But deep down he probably knows, I'm guessing it's some kind of nationalistic pride that makes him/them want to convince foreigners that Korea is indeed gay-free. Hopefully they never get violent? Unfortunately in my home town, if 2 guys went to a regular bar and declared to be gay, there is a high chance that violence, or at least extreme unpleasantness, would ensue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The response is usually more one of curious confusion, never even unpleasantness. I would wager that these individuals are well aware that there are gays in Korea, but might have trouble acknowledging that as fact. On the whole, I don't get the impression that there's much homophobia in Korean, so much as there is a lack of openness about homosexuality. All my Korean coworkers know that those guys are gay - including the bosses - and everyone has always been very respectful and kind about it (save for the one Christian girl from Louisiana that we worked with). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
The assertion was that this is something foreigners have invented to make Koreans look bad. This clearly isn't the case, considering that I've heard it from Koreans on many occasions. What their intentions are with those statements is up for debate, but really, as I've said, two of my best friends in Korea are gay, and we've heard comments like the above on more occasions than we can count; it's clearly not a foreigners' invention.
As for the gay pride parade, I'd be surprised if many people know about that, what with the 2,000 people who attend in a country of 50,000,000 (many of them foreigners). |
I guess you don't watch Korean TV a lot.
And before you scoff at the above comment, talking about how it's much more open in the US, need I remind you that the first actor on prime time TV in the US to come out was a Canadian on a Canadian-produced TV show...in the mid-90's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQCyAQBgXY&feature=related
Last edited by 12ax7 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
The assertion was that this is something foreigners have invented to make Koreans look bad. This clearly isn't the case, considering that I've heard it from Koreans on many occasions. What their intentions are with those statements is up for debate, but really, as I've said, two of my best friends in Korea are gay, and we've heard comments like the above on more occasions than we can count; it's clearly not a foreigners' invention.
As for the gay pride parade, I'd be surprised if many people know about that, what with the 2,000 people who attend in a country of 50,000,000 (many of them foreigners). |
I guess you don't watch Korean TV a lot.
And before you scoff at the above comment, talking about how it's much more open in the US, need I remind you that the first actor on prime time TV in the US to come out was a Canadian on a Canadian-produced TV show...in the mid-90's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQCyAQBgXY&feature=related |
That has nothing to do with anything, considering the initial assertion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
The assertion was that this is something foreigners have invented to make Koreans look bad. This clearly isn't the case, considering that I've heard it from Koreans on many occasions. What their intentions are with those statements is up for debate, but really, as I've said, two of my best friends in Korea are gay, and we've heard comments like the above on more occasions than we can count; it's clearly not a foreigners' invention.
As for the gay pride parade, I'd be surprised if many people know about that, what with the 2,000 people who attend in a country of 50,000,000 (many of them foreigners). |
I guess you don't watch Korean TV a lot.
And before you scoff at the above comment, talking about how it's much more open in the US, need I remind you that the first actor on prime time TV in the US to come out was a Canadian on a Canadian-produced TV show...in the mid-90's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqQCyAQBgXY&feature=related |
That has nothing to do with anything, considering the initial assertion. |
So, you're essentially saying that you don't speak Korean enough to understand the TV shows which discuss gay and lesbian issues, nor do you understand the couple of TV shows that have had gay characters? No, I'm not saying that South Korea as a whole is a model of tolerance. I'm pointing out that you're wrong to assume that people are oblivious to the fact that there are gays here. It's in the media. What more proof do you want? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
And they are capable of expressing themselves perfectly well in English? Maybe you're meant to read between the lines, to understand that you probably won't meet any openly gay people.
In any case, unless someone's been living under a rock, I don't see how anyone could think there are no gays in Korea. As I was saying, it's discussed in the media quite frequently (clink on the OP's link). You just don't realize it is a topic of discussion because of your own limited understanding of Korean.
Tell me, why would Koreans be debating same-sex marriages if they don't think there are any gays here? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
And they are capable of expressing themselves perfectly well in English? Maybe you're meant to read between the lines, to understand that you probably won't meet any openly gay people.
In any case, unless someone's been living under a rock, I don't see how anyone could think there are no gays in Korea. As I was saying, it's discussed in the media quite frequently (clink on the OP's link). You just don't realize it is a topic of discussion because of your own limited understanding of Korean.
Tell me, why would Koreans be debating same-sex marriages if they don't think there are any gays here? |
At times they could express themselves perfectly, at times they couldn't. You assume I don't watch Korean news because of my Korean ability and not because of the fact that I never had cable. Stop trying to drag me into a battle over Korean ability, I'm pretty decent conversationally and I agree with you that foreigners should learn Korean. Again, you can speculate as to what these individuals' exact meaning might have been, but it doesn't matter: these comments are very real. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
And they are capable of expressing themselves perfectly well in English? Maybe you're meant to read between the lines, to understand that you probably won't meet any openly gay people.
In any case, unless someone's been living under a rock, I don't see how anyone could think there are no gays in Korea. As I was saying, it's discussed in the media quite frequently (clink on the OP's link). You just don't realize it is a topic of discussion because of your own limited understanding of Korean.
Tell me, why would Koreans be debating same-sex marriages if they don't think there are any gays here? |
So maybe one side uses the "There are no gays in Korea" as their argument. So what?
The US version of that line is "people are gay because of chemical imbalances. They are merely sick and need to be medicated." Both are preposterous, I know, but both are arguments that are made by people in both countries.
North isn't stating that he agrees with the statement, but rather acknowledging that actual Koreans do make that argument. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tiger fancini wrote: |
What a surprise. The famous line, "no gays in Korea," again uttered by a group of foreigners. I'm sure there are few old-school Koreans who might claim this, but honestly I've never heard it during the many years I've lived here.
I've heard about plenty of gay couples from Korean friends. Even met one very nice gay Korean couple who talked candidly about a thriving gay scene in Seoul. I've seen Korean dramas and movies about gay/lesbian issues, but I've never heard a Korean say "There are no gays in Korea." On this forum, I've seen it many many times. Makes me wonder just exactly who believes this? Or maybe it's just the type of thing that some foreigners expect, or hope, or maybe even want Koreans to believe?
Anyway, it's BS. There are PLENTY of gays in Korea. And Koreans know it too. |
Do you hide out in your room the entire time? I have been told countless times that "there are no gay Koreans" by a variety of different people here.
It hasnt just been one demographic either. Old people, middle aged people, conservatives, bible bashers etc have all expressed irrational expertise that Korean people arnt gay. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SeoulNate wrote: |
Do you hide out in your room the entire time? |
No.
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| I have been told countless times that "there are no gay Koreans" by a variety of different people here. |
Well, I haven't. I've already talked about the only place that I've heard it.
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| It hasnt just been one demographic either. Old people, middle aged people, conservatives, bible bashers etc have all expressed irrational expertise that Korean people arnt gay. |
Did you read my exchange with northway? We managed to remain civil, even though we've both had different experiences on this topic. I explained that I've heard a variety of different opinions from Koreans about gay people, from outright hatred and disgust, to well-wishing and support, to couldn't-give-a-cr@p apathy.
The ones who do deny it (ok, I believe they are there - despite having never personally heard them do it) probably do so out of some kind of stupid, "Korea-is-Best" national pride, but deep down they know they are wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| northway wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
And they are capable of expressing themselves perfectly well in English? Maybe you're meant to read between the lines, to understand that you probably won't meet any openly gay people.
In any case, unless someone's been living under a rock, I don't see how anyone could think there are no gays in Korea. As I was saying, it's discussed in the media quite frequently (clink on the OP's link). You just don't realize it is a topic of discussion because of your own limited understanding of Korean.
Tell me, why would Koreans be debating same-sex marriages if they don't think there are any gays here? |
At times they could express themselves perfectly, at times they couldn't. You assume I don't watch Korean news because of my Korean ability and not because of the fact that I never had cable. Stop trying to drag me into a battle over Korean ability, I'm pretty decent conversationally and I agree with you that foreigners should learn Korean. Again, you can speculate as to what these individuals' exact meaning might have been, but it doesn't matter: these comments are very real. |
Well, that's what we call cognitive dissonance. People have a tendency to deny the most basic facts if they bring into question their religious beliefs.
And, I'm not talking about the news.
http://blog.ningin.com/2011/06/09/gay-characters-in-korean-dramas/
Last edited by 12ax7 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sml7285 wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Go back and read the thread. It's not an assumption, it's what people have said to me. Tiger Fancini said that foreigners have made up that Koreans say there are no gays in Korea. As I responded, from personal experience, it is by no means something that is made up, considering many Koreans have said it to me themselves. What about this don't you understand? Koreans saying there are no gays in Korea is exactly that. You can speculate as to how much they actually believe what they are saying, but considering that I've heard it from the mouths of Koreans on many occasions means its not something that foreigners are simply inventing to make Koreans look provincial. |
And they are capable of expressing themselves perfectly well in English? Maybe you're meant to read between the lines, to understand that you probably won't meet any openly gay people.
In any case, unless someone's been living under a rock, I don't see how anyone could think there are no gays in Korea. As I was saying, it's discussed in the media quite frequently (clink on the OP's link). You just don't realize it is a topic of discussion because of your own limited understanding of Korean.
Tell me, why would Koreans be debating same-sex marriages if they don't think there are any gays here? |
So maybe one side uses the "There are no gays in Korea" as their argument. So what?
The US version of that line is "people are gay because of chemical imbalances. They are merely sick and need to be medicated." Both are preposterous, I know, but both are arguments that are made by people in both countries.
North isn't stating that he agrees with the statement, but rather acknowledging that actual Koreans do make that argument. |
As I was saying, he isn't reading between the lines, like you have. Yes, I agree with you that those who deny it are probably the same who prayed for the poor souls who suddenly found themselves gay because they went to the Lady Gaga concert. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| As I was saying, he isn't reading between the lines, like you have. Yes, I agree with you that those who deny it are probably the same who prayed for the poor souls who suddenly found themselves gay because they went to the Lady Gaga concert. |
You're doing an awful lot of projecting about me in this thread, for someone who has never met me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
