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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| As far as managing the foreign teacher workforce, I can only speak to life out here in the provinces. We all work our 22 hours a week whether at one school or more schools to get those 22 hours pinched out of us. Sometimes, we'll get a couple of extra classes squeezed out of us but with some marginal overtime. If Seoul and Gyeonggi aren't doing that but will start, welcome to our world. |
That is the same that we native speakers must do here now that we got a fotb VP from Korea that does his damndest to follow/try to implement what public school back there requires. The thing is, we do an a$$ load more work than the average NSET in K-land (think of real school). He doesn't get it that this Korean school in China is different though and only knows what he knows from Korea ps. The K teachers still only teach their 18 hours a week and talk about how busy they are while internet shopping or perusing travel websites. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| pre 2009 Korea and post 2009 Korea are two very different worlds. |
Once the number of applicants exceeded the number of jobs things changed forever (and there is no going back). This happened for EPIK in the fall of 2009. This was the first time there were more public school applicants than openings. Many reasons for this actually, one of which was that public schools were (at the time) a better deal than hagwon. (Think growing awareness of that.) With or without a recession this was bound to happen (the flooded market and all). Probably would have started in 2010 rather than 2009. Weigookin74, explain why the ESL maket is getting worse as the U.S. economy is recovering. Your explaination is that the recovery numbers are faked, but I don't think that is correct. Look, the private industry- English hagwons- peaked in 2009. This is partly because people figured out the crap and scams that go on in them and decided to have their children self study through books and technology. A group even made thousands of fliers to distribute which talked about why English hagwons are a bad deal. Those had an impact. So did Ban Ki Moon's book about how he taught himself English without going to a hagwon. That book is a big seller in Korea.
Why is the ESL market flooded?
Because of public school cuts and the decline of hagwons. (I don't see how that could not be more clear.) Oh, and because of increased awareness of ESL and Korea. (Expect that to grow in the future.)
Think of what happened to ESL in Japan. Did that have anything to do with the U.S. economy? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
I would say that this while being your personal experience is not a reflection of the larger reality.
Certified teachers are required to have a B.A. in their subject for the most part. The cert is a additional qualifications in pedagogy / andragogy, classroom management and other teaching related matters. It is a selection criteria as well.
Are there bad cert teachers? You bet!
Are there people with no cert who are bad teachers? You bet.
Were I hiring teachers, I personally would pick the cert teacher most of the time because he or she, on top of a B.A. has some idea of what managing a class and delivering content is all about. |
Perhaps. The teachers in my middle school were all certified, yet all seemed to have selected their profession simply because they needed a job. None of the teachers at my high school were certified, but they were people with advanced degrees who specifically chose to teach despite having a host of different options. I feel like the certification requirement allows the uninspired a relatively cushy job with good benefits. This isn't to say that certified teachers are generally uninspired, but I do think there are a lot of people who pursue teaching degrees because it's the safe thing to do. |
Now that is a fair point. Some people do get certification as a back up plan. then again teaching as a profession always did attract such folks.
As for the cushy jobs...what do you mean and where?
I would say the proportion of people not suited to teach that do teach contains a higher number of non-certified teachers for one reason: getting certified takes time ( year), money (tuition can be high) and some dedication. Still no way around the fact some people teach and should be doing that.
As for higher qualifications (ex: MA, PhD) those certainly are NOT a garantee that a person will be a good teacher or professor! In fact, many PhD Professors simply stink as teachers and are far better suited for research. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Cushy in the respect that it's a job with very solid benefits that you will be able to collect on whether you do an exemplary job or the bare minimum. Teaching positions generally don't require that you excel in order to move up the pay scale, you automatically get bumped up. Bad teacher? That's okay, because it's damn near impossible to get fired. In this regard I think the US has at least made some progress, for despite the fact that I despise No Child Left Behind, at least here is some level of accountability.
Case in point: of the four home room teachers I had in middle school, two were known alcoholics who routinely showed up to school after the students had arrived, looking rather disheveled. One wore sweat pants on a regular basis. But, because they were tenured and backed by a short-sighted teacher's union, they remained on staff until they chose to retire. It's a pretty cushy job when you can get away with whatever you damn please without risk of termination, which is essentially the goal of many teacher's unions.
And advanced degree is certainly no guarantee of teaching ability, no argument there, but if someone has a host of options beyond teaching and they choose to teach out of passion, it says something.
Last edited by northway on Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: |
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What do you want?
Free time?
Lots of work to develop your skills and your trade?
40 years old is young but also old for this EFL game. I think if you can do well and earn a salary that allows you to save and eat and do what you want to do at the same time, no need to worry.
However, If you're looking to "be something" or "do something" this isn't the profession or trade to go to. It's a way to float through life and much of the time your fate is decided by a Korean businessman or woman. You really don't have much control over it; regardless of how skilled you are as a TEFL teacher.
That said, go on and obtain a masters degree or doctorate and see where it leads you. Those who are qualified, experienced and connected have carved out some very lucrative footholds in this business / industry. You can, too.
Good luck. But it's a crappy business to be involved with - at any level. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
I would say the proportion of people not suited to teach that do teach contains a higher number of non-certified teachers for one reason: getting certified takes time ( year), money (tuition can be high) and some dedication. Still no way around the fact some people teach and should be doing that.
As for higher qualifications (ex: MA, PhD) those certainly are NOT a garantee that a person will be a good teacher or professor! In fact, many PhD Professors simply stink as teachers and are far better suited for research. |
Patrick,
Then bring in the kids with a CELTA or TESOL. At least they've had some supervised teaching practicum experience.
The master's and doctorate crowds have had to endure other pressures to obtain their degrees. We need to separate these people: those trained to do classroom teaching and those who are trained to do research. Unfortunately, these waters are muddied in that Australian universities are said to be offering course-work master's and doctoral degrees.
We need more teachers here who can control and work a classroom. Not master's degrees or doctorates. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I understand your point but I think you are asking the wrong question(s).
Such as:
Is the qualification (whatever it may be) necessary to do the job effectively?
Is someone with the qualification (whatever it may be) inherently superior to someone who does not have the qualification?
What is the impact of the qualification compared to experience on the job?
When we have answers to those questions, the debate will be put to rest. Before that, I suspect the debate will continue on, espcially considering the history of the field. |
Sure there are lots of possible debates worth having on this subject but IMO arguing with someone who doesn't have a particular qualification who says that qualification is worthless, isn't one of them. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| pre 2009 Korea and post 2009 Korea are two very different worlds. |
Once the number of applicants exceeded the number of jobs things changed forever (and there is no going back). This happened for EPIK in the fall of 2009. This was the first time there were more public school applicants than openings. Many reasons for this actually, one of which was that public schools were (at the time) a better deal than hagwon. (Think growing awareness of that.) With or without a recession this was bound to happen (the flooded market and all). Probably would have started in 2010 rather than 2009. Weigookin74, explain why the ESL maket is getting worse as the U.S. economy is recovering. Your explaination is that the recovery numbers are faked, but I don't think that is correct. Look, the private industry- English hagwons- peaked in 2009. This is partly because people figured out the crap and scams that go on in them and decided to have their children self study through books and technology. A group even made thousands of fliers to distribute which talked about why English hagwons are a bad deal. Those had an impact. So did Ban Ki Moon's book about how he taught himself English without going to a hagwon. That book is a big seller in Korea.
Why is the ESL market flooded?
Because of public school cuts and the decline of hagwons. (I don't see how that could not be more clear.) Oh, and because of increased awareness of ESL and Korea. (Expect that to grow in the future.)
Think of what happened to ESL in Japan. Did that have anything to do with the U.S. economy? |
Japan declined because it's economy went into decline starting in the early 90's and folks just can't afford English like before. (The bubble burst.) Whether real or fake, a 7.6% unemployment rate for May is nothing to write home to momma and brag about. It's shite, actually.
As for Korea, Korea is dependant on exports. Many places here shut down and took a hit going into 2009 and 2010. There's less money to spend. Many hakwons started running into trouble at this time and failed. I know because I was here and saw people losing their jobs. (First, the bald teachers, then the fat teachers, then the darker skinned teachers, then finally the remaining teachers at quite a few academies.)
If things were going to "mature", it wouldn't happen all at once within a one year period. The US unemployment rate needs to be 5.5% or less before you see things get better here. 7.6% and weak consumer confidence and you see the kids come over here for bad contracts like lemmings and there's nothing us vets can do about it.
It's a shame. I got here at the end of the wave. I would have liked to have experienced those good times more. But, the province PS has kept me better than many or most. Still, there's no where further to go paywise. It may be time to look to greener pastures soon. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
Cushy in the respect that it's a job with very solid benefits that you will be able to collect on whether you do an exemplary job or the bare minimum. Teaching positions generally don't require that you excel in order to move up the pay scale, you automatically get bumped up. Bad teacher? That's okay, because it's damn near impossible to get fired. In this regard I think the US has at least made some progress, for despite the fact that I despise No Child Left Behind, at least here is some level of accountability.
Case in point: of the four home room teachers I had in middle school, two were known alcoholics who routinely showed up to school after the students had arrived, looking rather disheveled. One wore sweat pants on a regular basis. But, because they were tenured and backed by a short-sighted teacher's union, they remained on staff until they chose to retire. It's a pretty cushy job when you can get away with whatever you damn please without risk of termination, which is essentially the goal of many teacher's unions.
And advanced degree is certainly no guarantee of teaching ability, no argument there, but if someone has a host of options beyond teaching and they choose to teach out of passion, it says something. |
That does happen (bad teachers) but the majority of the people I worked with as a Public School Teacher in Ontario were dedicated educators who did not count the hours they put in, including non-paid hours.
By the way, you certainly have not worked in a PS in Canada if you think a teacher can "get away with whatever he or she wants". In fact the tendency for the past decade or more has been to jettison teachers when comes to problems, meaning management offers next to no support and the union has limited reach. Say a parent complains, the admin will seek to satisfy the parent and the teacher typically takes the brunt of it, wether he is guilty or not.
I will say unions can go too far when protecting their own but that the benefits of unions for teachers and for education still far outweigh the negative aspects.
Still, there are bad teachers everywhere. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
I would say the proportion of people not suited to teach that do teach contains a higher number of non-certified teachers for one reason: getting certified takes time ( year), money (tuition can be high) and some dedication. Still no way around the fact some people teach and should be doing that.
As for higher qualifications (ex: MA, PhD) those certainly are NOT a garantee that a person will be a good teacher or professor! In fact, many PhD Professors simply stink as teachers and are far better suited for research. |
Patrick,
Then bring in the kids with a CELTA or TESOL. At least they've had some supervised teaching practicum experience.
The master's and doctorate crowds have had to endure other pressures to obtain their degrees. We need to separate these people: those trained to do classroom teaching and those who are trained to do research. Unfortunately, these waters are muddied in that Australian universities are said to be offering course-work master's and doctoral degrees.
We need more teachers here who can control and work a classroom. Not master's degrees or doctorates. |
That is certainly true in the case of teaching young learners. |
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