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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Yes, korea invented the printing press and yes the Mongols invade Europe. |
The Mongols did not invade Europe, and the Koreans (most emphatically) did not invent the printing press.
Double fail. |
Wrong...Korea has the earliest books printed by movable metal types that is known to exist. |
Really, is it so difficult to stay on topic? The point was that Korea did not invent the printing press. China did. Whether or not Korea has the oldest books made from metal type is neither here nor there. They did not invent the printing press. The Chinese did. And if the Chinese had not invented it, Koreans would have had nothing to add metal parts to. Now, would they? They'd have all these metal parts lying about the floor and one impatient chap would say: "I wish the Chinese would get off their arses and invent the printing press already. These metal thingies are going to start rusting. And I've got boxes of them. Is it too much to ask the Chinese to invent the printing press so we can add our little metal letters to it and call it Korean?" Yes, replies his friend. "The Chinese are very lazy. Not like the industrious Korean people." "Yes, my friend. Korean people are very diligent and genius. Did we not invent the printing press?"
Koreans simply did what they always do. Add to inventions made by non-Koreans. Saying the printing press is Korean is about as sound a historical statement as saying K-pop is a Korean dance form. 
Anything else you'd like us to consider? Or was that it? |
WoW!
If you dont mind, I would like to submit this blinding insight of yours to a history periodical becasue Im sure there are a lot of historians would like to know what you think. Ill use your name of course.
I was thinking of maybe starting with this site and asking if they have any recommendations? What do you think?
http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=invasion_mongol_europe |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
Anything else you'd like us to consider? |
Yes, there's that thing of 'looking for Korean contribution to the world' in European perspective. What's the point when you're not going to give credit where it's due? What you're doing is a Narcisist's game: blowup your tiny achievement thousand-fold and belittle your rival's to nothing. However, I doubt psychosis is not going to worry your pretty head.  |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
Europeans never saw gunpowder before the Mongol invasion. Byw, Mongols did rule Eastern europe and the eastern orthodoxy empire at the time.
Thats why Marco Polo went on his fact finding mission. His was one of hundreds if not thousands of fact finding missions it seems.
History is indeed a complicated subject. |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Wrong. Mongol forces did conquer southern Finland,Poland, and Hungarian plains. |
Did the Mongols move into Eastern Europe and defeat every army they came up against? Yes.
Did they get as far West as Vienna? Yes.
Would they have reached the Atlantic eventually if they hadn't stopped? 90% yes.
Is this the same as conquering and ruling? No.
They didn't stick around. They didn't set up tribute systems. They did not rule Europe. Invasion does not equal conquest.\
I have no problem admitting the Mongols were one of the greatest and most dominant fighting forces in human history. But lets not assign things to them that never happened. Especially in a discussion that is supposed to be about what KOREA gave to the world. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
If you dont mind, I would like to submit this blinding insight of yours to a history periodical becasue Im sure there are a lot of historians would like to know what you think. Ill use your name of course.
I was thinking of maybe starting with this site and asking if they have any recommendations? What do you think?
http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=invasion_mongol_europe |
I was clearly wrong about the Mongols having invaded (small parts of eastern) Europe. I acknowledge that. I learned something today. But it wasn't about Korea, and that's what this thread is about. I've yet to learn anything new about Korea's contribution to the wider world. Instead of posting links about Mongol's how about posting something credible about Korea's accomplishments (sic). |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| andrewchon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
Anything else you'd like us to consider? |
Yes, there's that thing of 'looking for Korean contribution to the world' in European perspective. What's the point when you're not going to give credit where it's due? |
Enlighten us about where credit is not being given where it is due? We acknowledge that Koreans added metal parts to the printing press that was invented by the Chinese. We acknowledge that. But that's not what you (and many Koreans) want. You want to take credit for the whole product, and praise for an invention that they did not invent. And it has nothing to do with my "European perspective." I wonder how the Chinese feel about Korea's claim that they invented the printing press? We all know that Koreans have no problem with plagiarism, or with taking a foreign product, changing it minutely, then calling it Korean. The recent Apple lawsuit against Samsung for intellectual theft shows that this unfortunate cultural trend hasn't gone away.
Koreans invented the printing press as surely as Samsung invented the smart phone.
In other words: not. |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares about inventions and their origins. Why won't we enjoy them instead?
For a country with a significant number of religious Christians, Koreans are too proud. Too proud to think clearly. Collective arrogance will eventually bring this whole country down worse than South Africa. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
If you dont mind, I would like to submit this blinding insight of yours to a history periodical becasue Im sure there are a lot of historians would like to know what you think. Ill use your name of course.
I was thinking of maybe starting with this site and asking if they have any recommendations? What do you think?
http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=invasion_mongol_europe |
I was clearly wrong about the Mongols having invaded (small parts of eastern) Europe. I acknowledge that. I learned something today. But it wasn't about Korea, and that's what this thread is about. I've yet to learn anything new about Korea's contribution to the wider world. Instead of posting links about Mongol's how about posting something credible about Korea's accomplishments (sic). |
Dont worry about it.
But it is related.
Cultures often impart aspects of their own culture when they trade/invade, we all know that. As Korea didnt do much of either directly (or should I say aggressively), they wouldnt have left an impression on the wider world historically - the printing press being the exception (though I know it is in debate as to whether it was a chinese or Korean invention).
That being said, Korea was often the under-dog when it came to trade/invasion but came into contact with a lot of cultures (portugese/Japanese/Mongolian/chinese - maybe others) so it is very probable, that the other cultures could have absorbed parts of Korean culture and claimed them as their own (ie: printing press).
An example that comes to mind, is the design of temple roofs. I read somewhere that the Japanese style was based on the Korean style. While this may not seem relevant to a Westerner, in terms of Asian architectural design, it is significant.
I think our failure, is to recognise credit where it is due because we have our own 'standard' of judgement (for example sports, food, tight jeans or 'selfies' being more recognizable as having 'cultural impact').
Also, it is impossible to measure and say who invented what because history, as they say, is always written by the winners. |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Yes, korea invented the printing press and yes the Mongols invade Europe. |
The Mongols did not invade Europe, and the Koreans (most emphatically) did not invent the printing press.
Double fail. |
Wrong...Korea has the earliest books printed by movable metal types that is known to exist. |
Really, is it so difficult to stay on topic? The point was that Korea did not invent the printing press. China did. Whether or not Korea has the oldest books made from metal type is neither here nor there. They did not invent the printing press. The Chinese did. And if the Chinese had not invented it, Koreans would have had nothing to add metal parts to. Now, would they? They'd have all these metal parts lying about the floor and one impatient chap would say: "I wish the Chinese would get off their arses and invent the printing press already. These metal thingies are going to start rusting. And I've got boxes of them. Is it too much to ask the Chinese to invent the printing press so we can add our little metal letters to it and call it Korean?" Yes, replies his friend. "The Chinese are very lazy. Not like the industrious Korean people." "Yes, my friend. Korean people are very diligent and genius. Did we not invent the printing press?"
Koreans simply did what they always do. Add to inventions made by non-Koreans. Saying the printing press is Korean is about as sound a historical statement as saying K-pop is a Korean dance form.
Anything else you'd like us to consider? Or was that it? |
The reason moveable metal printing was revolutionary because it made printing available to the masses. It was like the invention of the personal computer, whereas before computers were mainframes that took up an entire building floor.
This is why it is considered the greatest invention of the second millenium. All brought to you by Hallyu Inuits. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
Anything else you'd like us to consider? |
Yes, there's that thing of 'looking for Korean contribution to the world' in European perspective. What's the point when you're not going to give credit where it's due? |
Enlighten us about where credit is not being given where it is due? We acknowledge that Koreans added metal parts to the printing press that was invented by the Chinese. We acknowledge that. But that's not what you (and many Koreans) want. You want to take credit for the whole product, and praise for an invention that they did not invent. And it has nothing to do with my "European perspective." I wonder how the Chinese feel about Korea's claim that they invented the printing press? We all know that Koreans have no problem with plagiarism, or with taking a foreign product, changing it minutely, then calling it Korean. The recent Apple lawsuit against Samsung for intellectual theft shows that this unfortunate cultural trend hasn't gone away.
Koreans invented the printing press as surely as Samsung invented the smart phone.
In other words: not. |
Actually (I dont want to keep jumping on you), Ive never heard a Korean say they/Samsung took credit for inventing the smart phone...
What I have noticed, is that they know they copied it, but dont see anything wrong in that.
At least theyre honest about it though |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
Europeans never saw gunpowder before the Mongol invasion. Byw, Mongols did rule Eastern europe and the eastern orthodoxy empire at the time.
Thats why Marco Polo went on his fact finding mission. His was one of hundreds if not thousands of fact finding missions it seems.
History is indeed a complicated subject. |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Wrong. Mongol forces did conquer southern Finland,Poland, and Hungarian plains. |
Did the Mongols move into Eastern Europe and defeat every army they came up against? Yes.
Did they get as far West as Vienna? Yes.
Would they have reached the Atlantic eventually if they hadn't stopped? 90% yes.
Is this the same as conquering and ruling? No.
They didn't stick around. They didn't set up tribute systems. They did not rule Europe. Invasion does not equal conquest.\
I have no problem admitting the Mongols were one of the greatest and most dominant fighting forces in human history. But lets not assign things to them that never happened. Especially in a discussion that is supposed to be about what KOREA gave to the world. |
Well the Mongols shocked Europe. Who were these people with fire from cannons who defeated us completely?
Europeans were clearly thirsty for outside knowledge and outside technology, so this would never happen again. And hence, marco polo and the thousand explorers set sail towards the east to find and absorb as many new ideas, inventions, cultures, sciences as possible, to prevent the Mongols from coming again. Hence, the groundwork was laid out for the Korean moveable metal type to contribute to the development and he catchup of Europe. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
| The reason moveable metal printing was revolutionary because it made printing available to the masses. |
Once again, the Chinese invention did not revolutionize the world. Guttenburg's invention did. And it was light years ahead of the Chinese invention. Koreans fidgeted around the edges of the Chinese invention, but it was Guttenburg that revolutionized the world. The Chinese didn't do it, nor did the Koreans. The Germans did - and as far as I know there is no hard evidence linking the Chinese invention to the German invention. If there is (beyond mere speculation) I'd like to hear it.
Koreans say they invented ondol (under-floor heating), but the Romans had it over two thousand years ago. Did they get that from the Koreans, too? Or is it possible for two different civilizations to come up with a similar common-sense answer to a similar problem? Or has there been a conspiracy among historians to write Korea out of the history of the Roman Empire? |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
| cabeza wrote: |
| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
Europeans never saw gunpowder before the Mongol invasion. Byw, Mongols did rule Eastern europe and the eastern orthodoxy empire at the time.
Thats why Marco Polo went on his fact finding mission. His was one of hundreds if not thousands of fact finding missions it seems.
History is indeed a complicated subject. |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Wrong. Mongol forces did conquer southern Finland,Poland, and Hungarian plains. |
Did the Mongols move into Eastern Europe and defeat every army they came up against? Yes.
Did they get as far West as Vienna? Yes.
Would they have reached the Atlantic eventually if they hadn't stopped? 90% yes.
Is this the same as conquering and ruling? No.
They didn't stick around. They didn't set up tribute systems. They did not rule Europe. Invasion does not equal conquest.\
I have no problem admitting the Mongols were one of the greatest and most dominant fighting forces in human history. But lets not assign things to them that never happened. Especially in a discussion that is supposed to be about what KOREA gave to the world. |
Well the Mongols shocked Europe. Who were these people with fire from cannons who defeated us completely?
Europeans were clearly thirsty for outside knowledge and outside technology, so this would never happen again. And hence, marco polo and the thousand explorers set sail towards the east to find and absorb as many new ideas, inventions, cultures, sciences as possible, to prevent the Mongols from coming again. Hence, the groundwork was laid out for the Korean moveable metal type to contribute to the development and he catchup of Europe. |
No one is debating that. History is totally interlinked and all the pieces matter. But you keep making ridiculous blanket statements like "When the Mongols ruled Europe". And then you are trying to link it back to Korea.
Have you ever considered a position at Arirang TV? You would fit right in. |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Thundersticks. |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
| The reason moveable metal printing was revolutionary because it made printing available to the masses. |
Once again, the Chinese invention did not revolutionize the world. Guttenburg's invention did. And it was light years ahead of the Chinese invention. Koreans fidgeted around the edges of the Chinese invention, but it was Guttenburg that revolutionized the world. The Chinese didn't do it, nor did the Koreans. The Germans did - and as far as I know there is no hard evidence linking the Chinese invention to the German invention. If there is (beyond mere speculation) I'd like to hear it.
Koreans say they invented ondol (under-floor heating), but the Romans had it over two thousand years ago. Did they get that from the Koreans, too? Or is it possible for two different civilizations to come up with a similar common-sense answer to a similar problem? Or has there been a conspiracy among historians to write Korea out of the history of the Roman Empire? |
It already revolutionized Asia well before Guttenberg copied it and repackaged it as his own.
If you have any evidence that Guttenberg invented it before the Koreans, by all means feel free.
I hope you realize that in the 11th century, Asia was 90% of the global GDP. It did indeed revolutionize the world. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| andrewchon wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Yes, korea invented the printing press and yes the Mongols invade Europe. |
The Mongols did not invade Europe, and the Koreans (most emphatically) did not invent the printing press.
Double fail. |
Wrong...Korea has the earliest books printed by movable metal types that is known to exist. |
Really, is it so difficult to stay on topic? The point was that Korea did not invent the printing press. China did. Whether or not Korea has the oldest books made from metal type is neither here nor there. They did not invent the printing press. The Chinese did. And if the Chinese had not invented it, Koreans would have had nothing to add metal parts to. Now, would they? They'd have all these metal parts lying about the floor and one impatient chap would say: "I wish the Chinese would get off their arses and invent the printing press already. These metal thingies are going to start rusting. And I've got boxes of them. Is it too much to ask the Chinese to invent the printing press so we can add our little metal letters to it and call it Korean?" Yes, replies his friend. "The Chinese are very lazy. Not like the industrious Korean people." "Yes, my friend. Korean people are very diligent and genius. Did we not invent the printing press?"
Koreans simply did what they always do. Add to inventions made by non-Koreans. Saying the printing press is Korean is about as sound a historical statement as saying K-pop is a Korean dance form.
Anything else you'd like us to consider? Or was that it? |
The reason moveable metal printing was revolutionary because it made printing available to the masses. It was like the invention of the personal computer, whereas before computers were mainframes that took up an entire building floor.
This is why it is considered the greatest invention of the second millenium. All brought to you by Hallyu Inuits. |
Huh? Ok, we get it by now that you want to show Asian influence on the world by linking a Korean achievement with the Mongol Invasions. But the main thing the Mongol Hordes spread was death.
Balance is good, but your constant spin/slant that the Mongols were these ultra tolerant, progressive people is odd considering how many people they routinely murdered.
Religious tolerance? Whatever. They didn't care who you were or what religion you were, as long as you submitted to them completely. If not, your whole clan/city/civilization was murdered to the last person. The Mongol Hordes were bad-asses, but don't try to spin it like they were somehow much better or more moral than other conquerors/colonialists in history. They did what many other civilizations tried to do at the time: conquer, steal, kill or be killed, rape and pillage. And they took it to the extreme. I'm not condemning them, but I'm not glorifying them either. They also did it before and better in many ways than the later European colonialists.
An interesting series of podcasts about the Mongols was done by Dan Carlin of Hardcore History. You also might like one he did about Magellan, where he asks the question: "Are white people special?" and looks at it in terms of "special" in both good ways and bad ways. |
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