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Maserial
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Location: The Web
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 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
It's very much a rational. Not wanting someone spraying spit and nose snot into my face is rational. This is something that doesn't have to happen. Often times the person can do this without spraying it all over the person in front of, next to, or behind them. Again, it's like pissing on someone. It can be avoided in most of the situations that it happens. It's not clean to do it even if it doesn't spread germ. It doesn't matter if it's liquid sanitizer, people shouldn't be wetting down the person near them. It's rude. |
The title of this thread is "The sound of an uncovered cough", not "getting sprayed by snot.
As I said, I agree with the aesthetics of not wanting snot and covering your mouth, but the infectious angle of it just doesn't hold enough weight to justify the rage that is being generated by it. |
Where is all this supposed rage of which you speak? Are you exaggerating, delusional, or both? Just curious. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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He still hasn't told us whether he covers his mouth when he coughs or sneezes. You know what, I bet he does. But the apologist gene insists that Korea be defended nonetheless.
Anyway, hopefully he'll clear this up in his next post. Do you block your cough and sneeze railsy? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
He still hasn't told us whether he covers his mouth when he coughs or sneezes. You know what, I bet he does. But the apologist gene insists that Korea be defended nonetheless.
Anyway, hopefully he'll clear this up in his next post. Do you block your cough and sneeze railsy? |
Of course I do. However, I dont delude myself into somehow thinking by engaging in this action I am doing little more than throwing a bucket of water on a building engulfed in flames.
If someone coughs directly on me, thats off. But if they are merely in the same room or on the sidewalk, whatever. Their covering their mouth isnt some sterile full-proof measure. Even if they cover, the force with which air is expelled and lack of airtight seal mean that such a measure is largely symbolic. It might reduce my chances of infection by like 2%, whoop dee do.
Youre treating covering your mouth like its wearing a Hazmat suit. Its not. Youre still probably spreading the disease.
If people all cover their mouths, why does the average person back home catch like a cold or three per year, same as here. Cuz it really doesnt do that much. It helps on the margins.
Should it be done? Yes. Is it something to get apoplectic about when someone fails to do it? No. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Is it something to get apoplectic about when someone fails to do it? No. |
Cool, no need to apologize if you cough or sneeze on SR. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| There are so many strawmen in this thread, it's a wonder no one's called SR on them. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
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The last Time I saw someone pwned so badly like SR has been, Jazzmaster got pwned by Kimchininja.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| There are so many strawmen in this thread, it's a wonder no one's called SR on them. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
The last Time I saw someone pwned so badly like SR has been, Jazzmaster got pwned by Kimchininja.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| There are so many strawmen in this thread, it's a wonder no one's called SR on them. |
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Strawmen go both ways. After all my argument has been "That the effectiveness of mouth covering is so limited in terms of combating infection, that the rage generated against someone who fails to do so is not justified".
People seem to think that covering your mouth is some sort of tremendously effective tactic. I don't think that it is.
And given all the other unhygenic activities out there which are a part of normal human interaction and would require an OCD complex to prevent, singling someone out for that is like blaming someone for making too much noise by hammering, while you blast your stereo. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Effectiveness of cough etiquette maneuvers in disrupting the chain of transmission of infectious respiratory diseases.
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BACKGROUND:
The effectiveness of recommended measures, such as "cover your mouth when coughing", in disrupting the chain of transmission of infectious respiratory diseases (IRD) has been questioned. The objective of the current study was to determine the effectiveness of simple primary respiratory hygiene/cough etiquette maneuvers in blocking droplets expelled as aerosol during coughing.
METHOD:
In this study, 31 healthy non-smokers performed cough etiquette maneuvers in an effort to cover their voluntarily elicited best effort coughs in an open bench format. A laser diffraction system was used to obtain accurate, non-invasive, quantitative, real time measurements of the size and number of droplets emitted during the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers.
RESULTS:
Recommended cough etiquette maneuvers did not block the release and dispersion of a variety of different diameter droplets to the surrounding environment. Droplets smaller than one-micron size dominate the total number of droplets leaked when practicing assessed maneuvers.
CONCLUSIONS:
All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, performed as recommended, do not block droplets expelled as aerosol when coughing. This aerosol can penetrate profound levels of the respiratory system. Practicing these assessed primary respiratory hygiene/cough etiquette maneuvers would still permit direct, indirect, and/or airborne transmission and spread of IRD, such as influenza and Tuberculosis. All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, as recommended, do not fully interrupt the chain of transmission of IRD. This knowledge urges us all to critically review recommended CE and to search for new evidence-based procedures that effectively disrupt the transmission of respiratory pathogens. Interrupting the chain of transmission of IRD will optimize the protection of first responders, paramedics, nurses, and doctors working in triage sites, emergency rooms, intensive care units, and the general public against cough-droplet-spread diseases. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Effectiveness of cough etiquette maneuvers in disrupting the chain of transmission of infectious respiratory diseases.
| Quote: |
BACKGROUND:
The effectiveness of recommended measures, such as "cover your mouth when coughing", in disrupting the chain of transmission of infectious respiratory diseases (IRD) has been questioned. The objective of the current study was to determine the effectiveness of simple primary respiratory hygiene/cough etiquette maneuvers in blocking droplets expelled as aerosol during coughing.
METHOD:
In this study, 31 healthy non-smokers performed cough etiquette maneuvers in an effort to cover their voluntarily elicited best effort coughs in an open bench format. A laser diffraction system was used to obtain accurate, non-invasive, quantitative, real time measurements of the size and number of droplets emitted during the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers.
RESULTS:
Recommended cough etiquette maneuvers did not block the release and dispersion of a variety of different diameter droplets to the surrounding environment. Droplets smaller than one-micron size dominate the total number of droplets leaked when practicing assessed maneuvers.
CONCLUSIONS:
All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, performed as recommended, do not block droplets expelled as aerosol when coughing. This aerosol can penetrate profound levels of the respiratory system. Practicing these assessed primary respiratory hygiene/cough etiquette maneuvers would still permit direct, indirect, and/or airborne transmission and spread of IRD, such as influenza and Tuberculosis. All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, as recommended, do not fully interrupt the chain of transmission of IRD. This knowledge urges us all to critically review recommended CE and to search for new evidence-based procedures that effectively disrupt the transmission of respiratory pathogens. Interrupting the chain of transmission of IRD will optimize the protection of first responders, paramedics, nurses, and doctors working in triage sites, emergency rooms, intensive care units, and the general public against cough-droplet-spread diseases. |
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Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? The article doesn’t sway the argument one way or the other and probably will now fuel it with more opinion, such as mine.
There are 2 sides to this argument, one is that by using etiquette, little or nothing is done to prevent the spread of infectious, air borne bacteria etc. The other is that some etiquette disrupts it.
I am in the 'it disrupts it' camp.
While I never claimed that it entirely disrupts it, the diagrams shown supported what I was taught/believed, that some etiquette will disrupt the direction of contamination enough to limit the amount of people around you being infected. In a well ventilated area/outdoors, it is more effective.
If you are in a train for example and you sneeze using no cover, more people will be effected over a greater distance as opposed to the people near you.
Regardless. I know I will infect some people and they me. To me, that isnt the point. The point is that they/I demonstrate basic manners and consideration for those around them - especially strangers and hopefully reduce the spread of viruses and bacteria.
I went on a date with a korean girl once. And she sat opposite me in the coffee shop, maybe a metre or less away, and coughed right in my face 3 or 4 times - If I hadnt just mentioned to her that repeatedly saying 'whatever' wasnt very polite in English, I could have said something.... Anyway, that is the kind of shiet Im talking about. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? |
I'm just posting a relevant study. My personal opinion on the matter is limited to, "If you're going to cough on something, make sure it's not your hand, unless you're planning on immediately washing it." Handshaking culture is filthy enough without everyone coughing into their hand. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? |
I'm just posting a relevant study. My personal opinion on the matter is limited to, "If you're going to cough on something, make sure it's not your hand, unless you're planning on immediately washing it." Handshaking culture is filthy enough without everyone coughing into their hand. |
I always cough into my hand. I see it as my own responsibilty to wash/disinfect my hands before eating, putting my fingers up my nose, arse hole or anywhere else where there is mucus.
I have this opinion because regardless of whether or not people cough into this or that, there are still a lot of other baceria being spread through tactile interaction, and washing your hands every two minutes is bordering on compulsive obsessive disorder.
edit- and anyway, how many times a day do you shake hands with people? Every time they come up to you and say nice to meet you again and again and again...?
Having germs delivered to my face directly along with bits of your last meal is slightly different, don't you think?
Last edited by le-paul on Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? |
I'm just posting a relevant study. My personal opinion on the matter is limited to, "If you're going to cough on something, make sure it's not your hand, unless you're planning on immediately washing it." Handshaking culture is filthy enough without everyone coughing into their hand. |
I always cough into my hand. I see it as my own responsibilty to wash/disinfect my hands before eating, putting my fingers up my nose, arse hole or anywhere else where there is mucus.
I have this opinion because regardless of whether or not people cough into this or that, there are still a lot of other baceria being spread through tactile interaction, and washing your hands every two minutes is bordering on compulsive obsessive disorder. |
Well if you dont wash your hands you are doing the same thing as coughing into the air when you touch a desk or marker or doorknob. This goes to my point that your outrage is selective and disproportianate to the limited effectiveness of covering your mouth. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? |
I'm just posting a relevant study. My personal opinion on the matter is limited to, "If you're going to cough on something, make sure it's not your hand, unless you're planning on immediately washing it." Handshaking culture is filthy enough without everyone coughing into their hand. |
I always cough into my hand. I see it as my own responsibilty to wash/disinfect my hands before eating, putting my fingers up my nose, arse hole or anywhere else where there is mucus.
I have this opinion because regardless of whether or not people cough into this or that, there are still a lot of other baceria being spread through tactile interaction, and washing your hands every two minutes is bordering on compulsive obsessive disorder. |
Well if you dont wash your hands you are doing the same thing as coughing into the air when you touch a desk or marker or doorknob. This goes to my point that your outrage is selective and disproportianate to the limited effectiveness of covering your mouth. |
sorry? my outrage? 
Even if I was outraged, which I wasnt, you are being very typically korean-level of ignorance silly again, so Im not debating with you until you stop it. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
CONCLUSIONS:
All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, performed as recommended, do not block droplets expelled as aerosol when coughing. This aerosol can penetrate profound levels of the respiratory system. Practicing these assessed primary respiratory hygiene/cough etiquette maneuvers would still permit direct, indirect, and/or airborne transmission and spread of IRD, such as influenza and Tuberculosis. All the assessed cough etiquette maneuvers, as recommended, do not fully interrupt the chain of transmission of IRD. This knowledge urges us all to critically review recommended CE and to search for new evidence-based procedures that effectively disrupt the transmission of respiratory pathogens. Interrupting the chain of transmission of IRD will optimize the protection of first responders, paramedics, nurses, and doctors working in triage sites, emergency rooms, intensive care units, and the general public against cough-droplet-spread diseases. |
In other words, though it doesn't fully interrupt the spread, it does have some effect.
Think about a room or subway car. A guy at the other end is coughing violently into the air in your direction. His spit and germs are expelled in a way that they spread the maximum distance in the minimum time, with zero interruption of spit from his hand, elbow or tissue.
Now picture the guy pointing his head downwards while coughing into his arm, hand, or tissue. Not only is a percentage of the spit/germs interrupted, but the remaining spit/germs would reach you slower, if they travelled that far at all (eventually, the micro droplets probably would, but fewer of them).
If that example doesn't work, now stand right next to the guy. He coughs and sprays you with spittle and mucus. OR... he covers his mouth and keeps most of his bodily fluids on himself. Which one is better?
And as far as coughing into your hands and then touching doorknobs or surfaces, that's still preferable. People should assume that almost all surfaces will be dirty anyway, and wash hands frequently. And if you can't wash hands often, don't put fingers into your mouth or nose or eyes if you can avoid it.
But even if covering a cough did absolutely NOTHING for the spread, it's still preferable than not covering at all, simply due to the manners issue. It shows consideration. By covering a cough, you are signaling to others that you are sick and are trying not to spit on them or spread your germs.
Truly amazing that this is an argument at all. If there were a people that tended to throw poop everywhere, would you have apologists saying, "Well, there are microscopic poop particles around too, so what's the difference? Why the outrage?" |
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goat
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| Im not entirely sure what your stance is on the argument due to the fact you didnt write a comment? Are you 'just saying'? |
I'm just posting a relevant study. My personal opinion on the matter is limited to, "If you're going to cough on something, make sure it's not your hand, unless you're planning on immediately washing it." Handshaking culture is filthy enough without everyone coughing into their hand. |
I always cough into my hand. I see it as my own responsibilty to wash/disinfect my hands before eating, putting my fingers up my nose, arse hole or anywhere else where there is mucus.
I have this opinion because regardless of whether or not people cough into this or that, there are still a lot of other baceria being spread through tactile interaction, and washing your hands every two minutes is bordering on compulsive obsessive disorder. |
Well if you dont wash your hands you are doing the same thing as coughing into the air when you touch a desk or marker or doorknob. This goes to my point that your outrage is selective and disproportianate to the limited effectiveness of covering your mouth. |
Ah, come on, stop it! Enough with your heckling. Stop it! Enough of the silly nonsense. Stop it, now! |
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