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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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 Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| A good logical post with issues covered and interesting references. Thanks Steel Rails. You clearly are a keen reader of USA history in all its fascinating past and inglorious aspects. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
Another example of confusion regarding just what Immigration and an Immigrant constitute. People who teach English in Korea and enter as foreigners and not those of Korean ethnicity qualifying for different visas are guest workers whose legal status is that of temporarily filling a skills need. |
So what?
There is a section of Korean society who does not want English education or educators in their country and see it as a threat to their culture and way of life, sound familiar?
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| There is absolutely no intent in an E-2 visa or one that is for engineers or IT people or whatever to be a visa for permanent permission to live and work in Korea. In certain western countries you can receive citizenship after 3 years of continual residency. |
Again, ignoring the point that there are thousands of English speakers, the mass majority of them refusing to intergrate or learn the language of the host country. Also, you seem to have this mindset that laws of residency aren't fluid - they very much are and are subject to change at any time.
In fact, foreigners are eligible for permemant residency and Korean citizenship which has been available over these past few years.
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| There is no such thing as Immigration for the overwhelming majority of English teachers in Japan, Korea and PR of China and Taiwan. |
Not now, no. But it could all change in the future - those nice folks who came to help us out on Empire Windrush weren't meant to be in the UK all that long either.  |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
| I think the majority of people here would understand why it's so tough for those people in the Guardian article etc. But the fact remains for around 15 yrs or more, too many people outside first world countries have abused the asylum seeker/refugee provisions of the UN Convention relevant to them. |
Is that a fact? |
I cited the example of Tamils in Australia. I have worked in Australia.
Their particular immigration scam was one of the reasons the Labor Party there had countless members as well as the public complaining about the fact that new, unauthorised arrivals were suddenly being fast tracked to housing while Australia's disadvantaged and working people on low salaries were still on housing lists waiting.
Australia has been incredibly generous to refugees with no strings attached benefits but the continual waves of thousands of people coming through Australian Tamils sending home money from the Australian taxpayer was an organised scam to put it in plain terms. Asylum seeker communities who were lucky to come in under the porous borders that Labor Prime Minister Kevin Rudd decided to create by ordering the navy to spend their days escorting boats into Australia, had it all worked out.
The incoming people arrived with no ID whatsoever as they were advised to do to make their case stronger, they had communications equipment with them, and they were coached in what to say to best receive a protection visa. Australian activists also engaged in this as well as Tamils already living in Australia. This all certainly turned many Australians against them and Australia is a country that had virtually no public issues with refugees until some time into Rudd's government.
Supposedly the asylum seekers are afraid of their homeland and its govt and people yet I can tell you that in the UK as well as Australia, one of the first things that many of them do when they receive residency then citizenship is to apply for a passport of the UK or Australia so they can travel home. You can argue til you're blue in the face that they feel safe now but if their homelands were so dangerous they would not be seeking to go back even on another passport so soon.
Abuse of the system occurs in other ways. The most obvious is the funding of criminal networks by getting on boats or getting on vehicles in mainland Europe to travel to asylum seekers' preferred destination. Truly terrified people will want to go to the nearest safe haven but the widespread cherry picking of destinations should tell you something unless you are terribly naïve.
Encouraging unauthorised entries makes criminal networks in the Middle East, South Asia and elsewhere a huge profit. It is human trafficking and no amount of politically correct verbiage will make that less true. When western governments accept this trade they are simply encouraging more to come. Had Italy's navy and coastguard refused to take boats and turned them back as the Australian navy began to do finally when Kevin Rudd was worried he would lose the next election, it would have discouraged those people who later drowned.
Lastly, as somebody who grew up in one of the low income areas of London and has friends from multi-ethnic backgrounds including Pakistan, Egypt and Iran, it always has been obvious to the host population that asylum seeking has been too much of a scam in the 21st century.
The Muslims who came to the UK as legal immigrants and have lived in my country since the 1960s or 1970s/80s for example, have not tended to be the ones involved in the terrorism, scandals and criminal activities that have emerged from asylum seeker/refugee communities of the recent past. These Muslims did not come to the UK to recreate their home societies and they did not enter through human traffickers nor did they destroy their ID.
I keep hearing that the reason for the terrorist attacks in multiple western countries by Muslims is because of the wars in the Middle East and the area around Syria, Lebanon etc but I don't buy that assertion. Turkey is funding different militias including those of terrorists in Syria and is providing entry points for rogue elements across the world to enter the conflict.
When the British Empire had Ireland in a stranglehold in the 19th and early 20th centuries and was starving people to death by its policies as well as employing aggressive troops and militias to show the natives what happens when you ask for independence, the Irish diaspora in the USA, Australia, Canada, NZ, England and other countries did not go back to Ireland to take up arms against Britain. They did not commit terrorist acts in the countries they lived in such as in the USA, Britain or Australia to protest the ongoing war against the Irish.
Too many contemporary Muslims in western countries still consider their connection to their original countries, people and their religion surpasses any consideration for their new countries, and it's time to enact 'No authorisation, no entry rules' for them and any other people from outside western countries who want to enter on asylums seeker grounds. Western countries have generous UN intakes of refugees and although this sometimes benefits those with connections, it is still a visible sign of goodwill especially considering Muslim intakes outnumber those of Christians who are actively being slaughtered in the Middle East and Africa as we speak. |
I'm not sure I'm convinced as to the general history of asylum in Commonwealth countries, but you have at least educated me. (As for the stuff about Muslims, your generalizations are broad and it doesn't sound as if you actually know any Muslims).
I only know about the U.S. asylum system, which is very strict and which immigration practitioners find capricious, frustrating, and full of great delay. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| A good logical post with issues covered and interesting references. Thanks Steel Rails. You clearly are a keen reader of USA history in all its fascinating past and inglorious aspects. |
Sarcastic who literal? Either way cheers.
I have visions of you being the judge in 'My Cousin Vinny'- "Steelrails, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out point. OVERRULED." |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
I'm not sure I'm convinced as to the general history of asylum in Commonwealth countries, but you have at least educated me. (As for the stuff about Muslims, your generalizations are broad and it doesn't sound as if you actually know any Muslims).
I only know about the U.S. asylum system, which is very strict and which immigration practitioners find capricious, frustrating, and full of great delay. |
I understand you're being reasonable but as a North American whose experiences are quite different of Muslim people, one of the factors being the USA is an incredibly big country, with states and their different peoples spread out and diverse, you don't have a grasp of the UK, European or Commonwealth situation re asylum seeking and Muslims that form the largest group of them. The sheer numbers of Muslims seeking asylum, both genuine and those participating in organised scams for financial/political reasons are why these people are at the forefront of controversies regarding asylum seekers/refugees and their continued move into our countries without coming through legal avenues.
I'm a Brit and I'm half Jamaican and the rest English/Irish/Scot. I grew up in area that was minority white and I grew up near Tower Hamlets. Other Brits especially from London will understand the significance of that name denoting an area that has become a kind of ghetto for Muslim extremists.
I know plenty of Muslims, went to school with them and have friends of that background/religion. For me analysing what is going wrong because of unauthorised Muslim/3rd world entrants is just the same as analysing what has gone wrong among black teenagers, both male and female, whose parents were African asylum seekers who were allowed to stay in the UK. Knife crime in London is mostly committed by younger black people from that background and no amount of well meaning anti racism sentiment can change that.
There are schools in London where the students have gone shopping and bought steak knives into their schools and battled it out. Kids have been murdered, usually other black youth although there was a case not so long ago where a white kid was bike riding with his mates on the high street (shopping street) and African males stabbed him fatally to steal his bicycle.
My brother looks black and has been racially profiled a number of times while I haven't, looking white although a close look shows certain African features, but he would never say that it is racist to acknowledge problems with young black people and knife crime. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
| A good logical post with issues covered and interesting references. Thanks Steel Rails. You clearly are a keen reader of USA history in all its fascinating past and inglorious aspects. |
Sarcastic who literal? Either way cheers.
I have visions of you being the judge in 'My Cousin Vinny'- "Steelrails, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out point. OVERRULED." |
Not at all sarcastic! I really enjoyed your knowledge of and insights into the American history you gave to back up your views and demonstrate why the Irish/Muslim analogy is not so much that. I am fascinated by American history as well as other countries' histories and your knowledge of the American Civil War and the Irish Brigade gave me new information.
Thanks!  |
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EastisEast
Joined: 29 May 2014
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:59 am Post subject: |
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American History? I do hate that drivel. Have you read Russian or French or Ottoman History?
So much more bright and shiny. Even British History is a better read. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| EastisEast wrote: |
American History? I do hate that drivel. Have you read Russian or French or Ottoman History?
So much more bright and shiny. Even British History is a better read. |
They are all connected. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Are they all gone yet? |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| But that's just the point, other groups...we can't expect one group to change if we group against them. Then we're just a whole bunch of groups... |
Muslims certainly believe they are a group, a group whose cultural values are utterly opposed to yours. |
Not really true. Moslems act as one when they feel they are threatened for being moslem but islamic history has shown when left alone they have always fought each other and had a lot of infighting and still do. These days Shia and Sunni. Saudi Arabia are infinitely more worried about Iran than Israel is.
Every group is like that. You ban together when you and your enemy is threatened. Europe united to fight the Nazis. France and England were warring for about a 1000 years but fought as allies twice for a common enemy.
The American indians were never united, had small wars and raids aganst each other until faced with a common enemy and united but it was too late. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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What has been going on in Europe is that, Europe, generally speaking, as a collective, prospered so well after World War 2, that everyone made a good middle class living and to some extent working class.
Rebuilding war torn Europe in many places, provided DDD (dirty, dangerous, difficult) jobs for native European unskilled and low skilled.
With a great system of institutions where everyone got a quality education through HS and cheap, often free colleges, national healthcare, etc. no one wanted to do the DDD jobs and they imported that labor. Depending on the country, it was usually their former colonies. For france it was north Africans and former colonies in Senegal, Ivory Coast, etc.
For countries without much of a colonial system to get cheap labor like Germany, it was Turks and other peoples. Norway, Sweden, etc. the same. England had a massive empire to draw from.
What compounds this is that all countries with a European majority or is European ancestoral controlled have a negative birthrate. All of Europe, Canada, America, Australian, NZ. We aren't having kids. Its a fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LA5xhXk_4U
So that more pressure to inport people to build a base to pay for the pensions, etc. of the growing older population.
Ever wonder why Bush never did anything about the border? Republicans had the perfect storm to stop illegal immigration south of the border. 2000-2006, Republican controlled all 3 branches of government and had 911 as an excuse but did nothing about the border. Why? THey didn't want to. America needed the cheap labor. 150 years ago, slaves were the cheap labor for the south and the north ended slavery so they had to import the poor from Europe.
With the ending of slavery and Jim Crow that ended cheap labor in the south. Unions ended cheap labor in the north central states. The west opened up but not enough latinos at the time so we surreptiously let the border open.
The last thing corporate farms, the restaurant industry, and any DDD intenstive job wants to see is the closting off the border.
Anyway, now Europe has gotten so many immigrants that they are facing the quandry. It was okay when it was a little, because they needed the labor but now there is more coming and with the Soviet block opened up massive eastern europe pressure as well.
If you notice pretty much all the European countries have right of center governments because the native Eurpoeans are seeing their society change. They were pretty much homogenous before and now the face of the nation is non native and its scarng everyone. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| But that's just the point, other groups...we can't expect one group to change if we group against them. Then we're just a whole bunch of groups... |
Muslims certainly believe they are a group, a group whose cultural values are utterly opposed to yours. It's about time Norwegians and others discarded this absurd religion of multiculturalism and started thinking more about self-preservation. You probably think that being 'tolerant' and 'understanding' will make Muslim immigrants want to respond in kind. Perhaps some of them will. I suspect many more view this as weakness, and see the West as a culture that is so scared of being viewed as 'racist' or 'Islamophobic' that it no longer has the confidence to defend itself or its heritage.
The important point is this. Do you want your country, in perhaps 50 or a hundred years time, to be home to large groups of people espousing the kind of views shown in the video below? And does having large groups of such people in your country improve the quality of life of people in Norway, or does it make it worse?
'How many of you agree that the punishments described in the Koran and the Sunnah, whether it is death, whether it is stoning for adultery, whatever it is, if it is from Allah and his messenger, that is the best punishment ever possible for humankind, and that is what we should apply in the world? Who agrees with that? (Almost everyone raises their hand)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU |
Avoid getting into detailed discussions about religion and/or theology. It violates the TOS. Otherwise, we'll just remove the whole thread.
Let's us know if that continues.
Thanks. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Irish Brigade during the Civil War |
Great sub-topic.
It is ironic that the Irish were viewed by the north as sub-human.... |
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