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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I still don't see how any clear-thinking individual can read what Cave Dweller wrote and conclude either that he was trying to be rude or that he had any kind of "negative ethnic connotations" in mind. Did he suddenly decide he wanted to disparage the Jews in a thread about Muslim holidays in New York City, yet simultaneously feel too timid to use a word which would express that disparagement in unambiguous fashion? Does anyone really believe that? Maybe so, but if so, I think it reflects more on such a person than it would on our Cave Dweller here.
Yes, this is a private forum, and the moderators can censor or ban whoever they like, there's no denying that. It's also true that there is an immense amount of social pressure to partake in this witch hunt, which is precisely why I'd feel a coward if I didn't speak out against it situations like this, where it's so obviously in error. |
Like I said, I think its just one of those mixups like the word coloured. Obviously hes not being anti-semitic. But pointing out how it can be misintrepreted and thus cautioned and not so much warned is fine. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Interestingly, your phrasing reinforces my point for me. Like you say, he obviously wasn't being anti-semitic, so if he is "misinterpred," how can that misinterpretation be anything but willful? Yes, to some extent our national dialogue is dominated by this unhealthy tendency to hunt for grounds upon which to feign offense and then declare a kind of "victory" after having found them, but there's no reason we need to inflict that kind of inanity upon ourselves here. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Interestingly, your phrasing reinforces my point for me. Like you say, he obviously wasn't being anti-semitic, so if he is "misinterpred," how can that misinterpretation be anything but willful? Yes, to some extent our national dialogue is dominated by this unhealthy tendency to hunt for grounds upon which to feign offense and then declare a kind of "victory" after having found them, but there's no reason we need to inflict that kind of inanity upon ourselves here. |
I can go with most of this but also go with initially challenging the intent.
CD made his intentions clear enough, but that was not good enough for some. Fair enough. We can't please everyone, nor should we even aim to do so.
The discussions that follow some of these debates make some of us better thinkers...if only these threads weren't often 'disappeared'.
While this site has its share of trolls, it also has some clever and insightful posters. Unfortunately, it's the trolls that mostly win the day.
While one may see it instantly as a slur, others don't. The grey in between can make for some interesting debate...especially where semantics are concerned.
So long as we are 'free' to discuss sensitive topics...this site is in dire need of more debate beyond kpop and the like. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Intentions are fine, but when pointed out that you're utilizing a retrograde usage of the word "colored", or that use of the term "Jew" as an adjective is generally considered a slur, the appropriate thing to do is to say "oops, my bad" rather than double down and claim that everyone else is wrong. Sure, the intent here may not have been bigoted, but the phrasing absolutely was. It shouldn't be that hard to find a different, less caustic way to say what you're trying to say, particularly for someone teaching the language. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm from a Jewish background. I don't think any of my relatives or friends from my background are really offended with the word Jewish, Jew, or someone randomly using a lower case letter, example: the letter j for writing jewish. My best friend from elementary school, who I consider to be my best friend even until today, is Jewish and his father is an Orthodox Jew. His father professes to be an 'Orthodox Jew.' I have heard them reference themselves as Jew. I have heard them use the word Jew, many times.
This is becoming ridiculous. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
I'm from a Jewish background. I don't think any of my relatives or friends from my background are really offended with the word Jewish, Jew, or someone randomly using a lower case letter, example: the letter j for writing jewish. My best friend from elementary school, who I consider to be my best friend even until today, is Jewish and his father is an Orthodox Jew. His father professes to be an 'Orthodox Jew.' I have heard them reference themselves as Jew. I have heard them use the word Jew, many times.
This is becoming ridiculous. |
Again:
Acceptable - "I am a Jew." "He is a Jew." "They are Jews." "There are many Jews in Israel."
Unacceptable - "He has those Jew curls." "Yom Kippur is a Jew holiday." "Why do they wear those funny Jew hats?"
It's really not that hard. Cave Dweller was pretty clearly using the latter usage, and it's really inappropriate. Wikipedia is helpful on this front:
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| The word Jew has been used often enough in a disparaging manner by antisemites that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was frequently avoided altogether, and the term Hebrew was substituted instead (e.g. Young Men's Hebrew Association). Even today some people are wary of its use, and prefer to use "Jewish". Indeed, when used as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") or verb (e.g. "to jew someone"),[1] the term Jew is purely pejorative. However, when used as a noun, "Jew" is preferred,[by whom?] as other circumlocutions (e.g. "Jewish person") give the impression that the term "Jew" is offensive in all contexts. |
Basically, don't rely on Tony Soprano for advice on proper usage. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I still don't see how any clear-thinking individual can read what Cave Dweller wrote and conclude either that he was trying to be rude or that he had any kind of "negative ethnic connotations" in mind. Did he suddenly decide he wanted to disparage the Jews in a thread about Muslim holidays in New York City, yet simultaneously feel too timid to use a word which would express that disparagement in unambiguous fashion? Does anyone really believe that? Maybe so, but if so, I think it reflects more on such a person than it would on our Cave Dweller here. |
Are you capable of writing a post that is not dripping with condescension?
The hypocrisy as well; you are defending the benefit of the doubt of Cave Dweller's intentions but saying that anyone who understands that the use of 'Jew' as an adjective (i.e. Jew holiday as opposed to Jewish holiday) might be offensive has clear intentions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
I'm from a Jewish background. I don't think any of my relatives or friends from my background are really offended with the word Jewish, Jew, or someone randomly using a lower case letter, example: the letter j for writing jewish. My best friend from elementary school, who I consider to be my best friend even until today, is Jewish and his father is an Orthodox Jew. His father professes to be an 'Orthodox Jew.' I have heard them reference themselves as Jew. I have heard them use the word Jew, many times.
This is becoming ridiculous. |
Again:
Acceptable - "I am a Jew." "He is a Jew." "They are Jews." "There are many Jews in Israel."
Unacceptable - "He has those Jew curls." "Yom Kippur is a Jew holiday." "Why do they wear those funny Jew hats?"
It's really not that hard. Cave Dweller was pretty clearly using the latter usage, and it's really inappropriate. Wikipedia is helpful on this front:
| Quote: |
| The word Jew has been used often enough in a disparaging manner by antisemites that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was frequently avoided altogether, and the term Hebrew was substituted instead (e.g. Young Men's Hebrew Association). Even today some people are wary of its use, and prefer to use "Jewish". Indeed, when used as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") or verb (e.g. "to jew someone"),[1] the term Jew is purely pejorative. However, when used as a noun, "Jew" is preferred,[by whom?] as other circumlocutions (e.g. "Jewish person") give the impression that the term "Jew" is offensive in all contexts. |
Basically, don't rely on Tony Soprano for advice on proper usage. |
While I'd agree with you if the person was from the United States, I'm not sure this follows in other English speaking countries. I think Cave Dweller is from the UK, and I'm not sure what the protocol is over there. If he's from the U.S. or has spent a significant portion of time living there, then it should be known that such phrasing is, hmm, inadvisable? But if such phrasing is not an issue in the UK, then certainly no one should consider that he had any malicious intent. And while perhaps the best reaction would be to simply acknowledge such an error and move on, getting accused of racism can cause someone to raise shields and arm the photons. Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
I'm from a Jewish background. I don't think any of my relatives or friends from my background are really offended with the word Jewish, Jew, or someone randomly using a lower case letter, example: the letter j for writing jewish. My best friend from elementary school, who I consider to be my best friend even until today, is Jewish and his father is an Orthodox Jew. His father professes to be an 'Orthodox Jew.' I have heard them reference themselves as Jew. I have heard them use the word Jew, many times.
This is becoming ridiculous. |
Again:
Acceptable - "I am a Jew." "He is a Jew." "They are Jews." "There are many Jews in Israel."
Unacceptable - "He has those Jew curls." "Yom Kippur is a Jew holiday." "Why do they wear those funny Jew hats?"
It's really not that hard. Cave Dweller was pretty clearly using the latter usage, and it's really inappropriate. Wikipedia is helpful on this front:
| Quote: |
| The word Jew has been used often enough in a disparaging manner by antisemites that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was frequently avoided altogether, and the term Hebrew was substituted instead (e.g. Young Men's Hebrew Association). Even today some people are wary of its use, and prefer to use "Jewish". Indeed, when used as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") or verb (e.g. "to jew someone"),[1] the term Jew is purely pejorative. However, when used as a noun, "Jew" is preferred,[by whom?] as other circumlocutions (e.g. "Jewish person") give the impression that the term "Jew" is offensive in all contexts. |
Basically, don't rely on Tony Soprano for advice on proper usage. |
While I'd agree with you if the person was from the United States, I'm not sure this follows in other English speaking countries. I think Cave Dweller is from the UK, and I'm not sure what the protocol is over there. If he's from the U.S. or has spent a significant portion of time living there, then it should be known that such phrasing is, hmm, inadvisable? But if such phrasing is not an issue in the UK, then certainly no one should consider that he had any malicious intent. And while perhaps the best reaction would be to simply acknowledge such an error and move on, getting accused of racism can cause someone to raise shields and arm the photons. Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice. |
Right, which is why I haven't been beating this drum too hard. In a similar vein, I think a lot of Americans might use the term "Paki" without realizing that it's an offensive term. But unless you want to go out of your way to be an ass, when called out on it the appropriate response is not to double down and claim that nobody else knows what they're talking about. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice. |
Yes...and while he may be sore to have it pointed out to him, it is quite likely he won't be using that term again anytime soon without it being intentional.
But this is precisely the non-trivial point that Fox is making.
Are we teaching or forcing each other to respect our PC fashion?
Moral high ground & horses are not required.
Just a heads up would suffice. No? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice. |
Yes...and while he may be sore to have it pointed out to him, it is quite likely he won't be using that term again anytime soon without it being intentional.
But this is precisely the non-trivial point that Fox is making.
Are we teaching or forcing each other to respect our PC fashion?
Moral high ground & horses are not required.
Just a heads up would suffice. No? |
Agreed here, but it just comes across as antagonistically stupid when you try to claim that the usage doesn't have any negative connotations when it very clearly does. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice. |
Yes...and while he may be sore to have it pointed out to him, it is quite likely he won't be using that term again anytime soon without it being intentional.
But this is precisely the non-trivial point that Fox is making.
Are we teaching or forcing each other to respect our PC fashion?
Moral high ground & horses are not required.
Just a heads up would suffice. No? |
Where was the force here, though? There was a blue pencil edit of the offending word followed by an explanation.
You know, in many cases on many forums edits are made without clarification, and then the subject of the edit will complain there was no explanation. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| ersatzredux wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We are not after everything someone says, but it was clear that CD had an attitude; he wasn't showing an iota of professionalism. Imagine if he said to a Jew in the US, "Hey, Dan, is Rosh Hashana a jew holiday?". How would that sound? And he didn't capitalize the word "Jew". That would lead one to conclude that he is trolling and trying to disparage Jews. We're not trying to retaliate. We got a report. It was viewed as offensive. If you're purposely looking to target Jews or whatever group, it violates the TOS. If you are not purposely trying to do so, and that's clear, that's another issue. Yes, there are grey areas that are hard to deal with. We're not trying to muzzle users. Have a good one. |
I think I can state with some degree of assurance that the word "Jew", used as an adjective, is almost always meant as pejorative. If you don't want to be insulting, you say "Jewish" for the adjective.
Now, is that logical, when, for example, "Catholic" can do double-duty as both a noun and an adjective, without being taken as offensive? Maybe not, but it is the way the usage has evolved: people who use "Jew" that way do so because they WANT to be viewed as hostile to Jews.
And this is not meant as comment on Cave Dweller's attitude toward Jews, as it's possible that someone could innocently pick up that usage without realizing the implications. But, yes, as far as forums like this go, it is a usage that should be discouraged. |
Teacher's pet. |
Oh, hey, if you wanna be the class rebel, and start incorporating "Jew" as an adjective into your everyday speech habits, go ahead. I look forward to your reports on what impact that has on your social status and career aspirations. |
I'll give you an update on how it goes this July. Get it? I've got all kinds just as good as that one too. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I still don't see how any clear-thinking individual can read what Cave Dweller wrote and conclude either that he was trying to be rude or that he had any kind of "negative ethnic connotations" in mind. Did he suddenly decide he wanted to disparage the Jews in a thread about Muslim holidays in New York City, yet simultaneously feel too timid to use a word which would express that disparagement in unambiguous fashion? Does anyone really believe that? Maybe so, but if so, I think it reflects more on such a person than it would on our Cave Dweller here. |
Are you capable of writing a post that is not dripping with condescension?
The hypocrisy as well; you are defending the benefit of the doubt of Cave Dweller's intentions but saying that anyone who understands that the use of 'Jew' as an adjective (i.e. Jew holiday as opposed to Jewish holiday) might be offensive has clear intentions. |
Oh Kuros, Kuros, Kuros. Cave Dweller's "offense" occurred on March 8th. I saw it and the criticism it prompted the same day (after all, I did post something in the thread that same day), but instead of immediately speaking up and lecturing, I held my tongue. Why? Precisely to give the mob the benefit of the doubt, of course; to give them the opportunity to realize their over-zealousness and self-correct if they were of a mind to do so. And four days later, when that zealousness had increased rather than subsided, I did interject, but with a gentle hand and no condescension at all; with just enough for a clever person to extrapolate out my entire case on their own. And only five days after that, when the mob was still rabble rousing, did I feel their intentions were sufficiently undeniable that it was worth a lecture. And even then, even then, I phrased my inferences regarding intentions as questions, inviting people to explain how such a misinterpretation could have occurred in the face of the "obvious" (not my word choice!).
At this point, despite not having been given the benefit of the doubt by his critics, everyone seems to agree that Cave Dweller had no "racist" or "bigoted" intentions. By contrast, despite having been given the benefit of the doubt, we're now to the point where Northway is imperiously declaring what words and phrases are "acceptable" or "unacceptable," speaking virtually in terms of moral law. And I'm the one condescending, am I? Well, maybe a bit at this point, but there's no hypocrisy here: I've been more than fair, and very much adhered to my own stated principles here. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote:
Still, at least some acknowledgement of such a turn of phrase potentially being dangerous in today's world and that it's good that it gets brought to one's attention here, rather than in places more inconvenient, would have been nice.
Yes...and while he may be sore to have it pointed out to him, it is quite likely he won't be using that term again anytime soon without it being intentional.
But this is precisely the non-trivial point that Fox is making.
Are we teaching or forcing each other to respect our PC fashion?
Moral high ground & horses are not required.
Just a heads up would suffice. No? |
It simply could have ended there...but yet, northway had to keep going. |
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