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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Nice going itaewonguy, sounds like they deserved it.
shakuhachi: average life expectancy was 24 years old??!  That's so low I thought you were joking. That's even lower than Europe in the Dark Ages I think, and how can that be right? It's not that I don't appreciate that late Choseon had slaves and other badly exploited classes, but 24?!! |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Why would you reply in Korean and use ban mal? If you don't like the evidence that is being tossed up refute it with evidence of your own in English. Why would someone who is only at an intermediate level in Korean engage you in a language in which you are fluent? It wouldn't work when discussing history. Although I am interested in how you think it would work. Damn me for using sources which dare to challenge your sugar coated version of history that is tainted by lies, propoganda, and gross exaggerations.
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| ���� �� �̷��� ������ ���� �ų�? |
It is a question that should be directed towards inwards. Although one has to ask the question, if the standard is so low here why have you had to resort to using Korean? Surely low level arguments are just as easily put down in English. Maybe I should resort to using Cornish when I am speaking bs. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| indiercj wrote: |
| ���� ������ �ȳ����±�. ����ü ��� ������ ���°ž�? ȥ�� ������ ���� �� ��Ű�� �ֳ�. �ⲯ ���ڰ� �� ���ϼ��� ���� å�̳� �ο��ϸ鼭 �� ��� ����ϰڴٴ� ����. ���� �� �̷��� ������ ���� �ų�? otz |
Gwangjuboy�� ���� ����� ����� ��ź ���ױ� ������ ������� ���� ����ϰ� �ֱ���. ����̾߸��� ������ ���� �ݾ�?�������� �dz��� ���������� �ѱ�� ��� �͵� �������� ������ �˰� �ִٱ���.
�ʴ� ���� ���� �� �ϴ� ������ �ѱ��ο� ������ �ʾ�. �� ���� ������ ����� �������� �ѱ����̾�?
I wish the other most of the other people here could understand what you wrote and see how insulting and arrogant it is. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Please use English.
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!" |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:34 am Post subject: |
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I could care less what the Japanese did to the koreans....It's a shame that Japan still does not control korea. It would be far better off. And I tell that to many koreans face! Not behind their back.
Having said that....you never ever hear a korean talk about what Hitler did! What Hitler did was far worse than what Japan ever did to korea! Far worse!! But..you don't hear the Jews, Pols, etc. crying and complaining about the Germans! Get over it koreans! Move on and think about something else besides your own small world. |
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chotaerang
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: In the gym
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
I have no idea which history book you have been digging. But here some historical facts. In Chosun there were 3 classes : the 'Yangban'(the aristocracy), the 'Sangmin'(the commoner), and the 'Noby'(the slaves). The government took houshold(Hogu) census every 3 years. In some region it's records has been preserved. Here's the data for Ulsan.
year Yangban Sangmin Noby(%)
1729 26.29 59.78 13.93
1765 40.98 57.01 2.00
1804 53.47 45.61 0.92
1867 65.48 33.96 0.56
After the Sangmin's gained economical power, buying their own status of Yangban was very common in the later period of Chosun Dynasty. Oh there was poverty. Some people fled and became nomad. But 90% being in slavery? I guess someone needs a quick refund. |
Firstly, lets have a look at the source on which you are basing these figures. You make monarchial rule in Korea sound almost pleasant. The facts are that Koreans under Japanese rule were better off than under the stewardship of your kings and queens. Under the Japnese some Koreans were executed for opposing the Meiji revolution. Hell, Japanese people in Japan were executed for the same things too. The difference is that under monarchial rule in Korea these things happened on a far greater frequency than before the Japanese came and ran the show. The Japanese came and allowed people to work as something other than a farmer, learn to read and write, and not starve! Sounds superb to me. |
Gwangjuboy, the 90% figure is central to your argument. Indiercj has cited figures which paint a vastly different picture and he has listed the source. You have still not listed your source, nor offered any evidence that the ones posted by Indiercj are incorrect. |
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chotaerang
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: In the gym
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Ok. You are free to live under their feet. We chose not to. |
Indiercj, this is not strictly true. Korea was a colony and showing no signs of changing that condition on its own, when the Americans came in and handed the country back.
I point this out not as a slight against Korea. It's simply that the lack of thanks shown America by the 386ers and under is a blemish on an otherwise fantastic country and people.
���� ���⼭ �ǰ��� ǥ���Ҷ� �ѱ���� �ϼ���. �̷����翡 ���ؼ� ��� �ϸ� ��/�츮 �ѱ��� �Ƿ��� ��� ��ų���ֱ����(��). |
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indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| indiercj wrote: |
| ���� ������ �ȳ����±�. ����ü ��� ������ ���°ž�? ȥ�� ������ ���� �� ��Ű�� �ֳ�. �ⲯ ���ڰ� �� ���ϼ��� ���� å�̳� �ο��ϸ鼭 �� ��� ����ϰڴٴ� ����. ���� �� �̷��� ������ ���� �ų�? otz |
Gwangjuboy�� ���� ����� ����� ��ź ���ױ� ������ ������� ���� ����ϰ� �ֱ���. ����̾߸��� ������ ���� �ݾ�?�������� �dz��� ���������� �ѱ�� ��� �͵� �������� ������ �˰� �ִٱ���.
�ʴ� ���� ���� �� �ϴ� ������ �ѱ��ο� ������ �ʾ�. �� ���� ������ ����� �������� �ѱ����̾�?
I wish the other most of the other people here could understand what you wrote and see how insulting and arrogant it is. |
�� �� �ȶ��� ô�� ȥ�� �� �ϴ���... ���� ���� ���� �������̱���.
���� ����� �ź��ߴٴ°ų�? ���� �� ��, ���־��̰� �� �� ���о���? �װ� �ο��� å�� ���� �� �����. ���� �ı�(�� �� ��Ȯ�� ���ϸ� �Ĺ��� �����̴� ���������̶�� �ؾ߰ڱ�)�� ����� �Ĺ����� ���缺�� ���ϸ鼭 �ⲯ ���ϼ��� ���� ���� �� ����̳İ�. ���� ���� �ٺ���� �ϴ��� ��. ���� ������ �Ϲݷ����� �������� ���� ������ ����� ������ �̾߱� �� ����. ��? ������ ���� å�� �а� �� ������ �ϴ��� ��� �� �� �� ���ڰ�.
��п� ���� ���� �Ÿ� ������ ��ġ�� ����. |
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skimilk
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: |
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gwangjuboy, you're english? reading your posts, i was sure you were korean or japanese... quel surprising. anyhow...
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| We have to go back to the age of cultural enlightenment a few hundred years ago before we can seriously suggest that Korea wasn't hell on earth for most of its own people. |
a popular opinion is that after king chungjo, who ruled in the late seventeenth century, if my memory serves correctly, yi dynasty really began to disintegrate. so no, we're not going back too far.
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| The Tokugawa regime was finding ts feet back in the early 1600s. I thought we were talking about the 1800s. The class system that the Tokugawa regime maintained was being dismantled in the mid 1800s. Meanwhile, across the sea of Japan the yangban remained unopposed. |
why are we talking about 1800s? i said "in the beginning of the dynasty" and we know that yi dynasty started around 1400s. tokugawa regime, like you said, didn't even start until a couple of centuries later, which i consider to be "the beginning of the dynasty" considering its long history.
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| The reformists in Korea were too dislocated to form any real social change. Some wanted to open up the economy, some were catholics, some wanted to open up but preserve confucianist values, some wanted the Japanese to implement the changes, and some wanted to preserve the influence of the Chinese while reforming incremently. To answer your question, As Japan was invited to Korea and generally welcomed it would seem that certain Koreans at the time certainly believed Japanese influence was a prerequisite for modernity, and positivity. Those Koreans were generally proved correct of course. |
it is true that there were koreans who welcomed japanese occupation, most of them from yangban class who feared any kind of reform movents such as tonghak. peasant suffered just the same during the occupation. and i don't know of any major reform movements in korea then whose credo was to follow china. and catholics, unlike china, never had the power to start an all-out revolution in korea. and again, those koreans were never proved "correct."
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| And replaced with what? Another hermit kingdom which conducts its business through Beijing? Maybe a crumbling of the class system under the influence of red Russia?(just a little later on) With the cards on the table at the time inviting Japan over was probably the best hand the Koreans had to play. |
again another evidence that you're rather ignorant about the specifics of the reform movements around that time. the general trend was to move away from china (and the popular sentiment was rather anti-china at that moment) so i don't know why it would've been a "hermit kingdon which conducts its business through beijing." and now that i know you're not korean, didn't live through the period, so you obviously can't speak for how korean(s) felt. nor can i. but i've met many koreans over the years and gotten the sentiment that the generation who actually experienced the occupation period (how many have you talked to?) didn't "welcome" japanese as you claim they did. funny, huh?
i've wasted too much time on this already. you're free to believe what you want i.e. if you'd like to believe that japanese occupation indeed was a blessing, that's fine. it's a matter of perspective. some people think general custer was a hero, some don't. it's called an opinion. but don't try to convince anybody else with whatever shallow knowledge you've gleaned from reading a couple books as "facts."
p.s while i'd like to discuss in korean, i'm not so confident in my ability to speak korean so i'll stick to english. sorry folks. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| skimilk wrote: |
| it is true that there were koreans who welcomed japanese occupation, most of them from yangban class |
According to indiercj's cites, in 1867, more than 65% of Korea's population were "yangban". Assuming that there was not a sudden decrease between then and the turn of the century, that's a lot of Koreans who welcomed Japan's administration. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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E-1 Status (Professors)
In the case of a national or a public university, a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor.
Immigration Bureau, Ministry of Justice, Republic of Korea
http://www.moj.go.kr/HP/ENG/eng_03/eng_306030.jsp
| jaykimf wrote: |
Perhaps those working in Universities are only adjunct instructers teaching as little as 12 hours a week or less and getting up to 5 months paid vacations.
Perhaps if you are unhappy with your contract, you should ask yourself why you signed it.
Perhaps if you want a higher paying job, you should apply for one.
Perhaps if you can't find a better job in Korea, you should ask yourself why you choose to remain in Korea instead of going to whatever country you think has better opportunities.
Perhaps if you can't find a better position anywhere in the world, you should be grateful for the opportunity you have in Korea. |
Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
Overall living conditions, including education, housing, medical care, transportation, immigration, and access to the Internet are pointed to as inconveniences. Not only inconveniences caused by different systems and customs in Korea, but also special discriminating practices, such as the practice of submitting two years of monthly rent in advance like a deposit, which is required of foreigners just because they are foreigners, are ubiquitous. "Even though Korea has achieved some degree of globalization in going abroad, it has still a long way to go for globalization in embracing foreigners inward," said foreigners residing in Korea. An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes."
by Jae-Dong Yu and Soo-Jung Shin, Donga.com (July 4, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448 |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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MOD EDIT |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, god knows you shouldn't trust the word of a guy who's successful with the opposite sex.  |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| [quote="skimilk"]gwangjuboy, you're english? reading your posts, i was sure you were korean or japanese... quel surprising. anyhow... |
I don't know what would have given you the impression that I am Korean.
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| a popular opinion is that after king chungjo, who ruled in the late seventeenth century, if my memory serves correctly, yi dynasty really began to disintegrate. so no, we're not going back too far. |
Irrespective of when the Yi dynasty was disintegrating the slavery system was still firmly in place in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. People were still being tortured for speaking ill of landowners on a regular basis, ad literacy rates remained shockingly low.
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| why are we talking about 1800s? i said "in the beginning of the dynasty" and we know that yi dynasty started around 1400s. tokugawa regime, like you said, didn't even start until a couple of centuries later, which i consider to be "the beginning of the dynasty" considering its long history. |
The discussion at hand is whether the role of the Japanese in Korea was more positive than what preceded. In order to do this one should observe what Korea was like from about 1850 to the early 1900's. In that time it was hell on earth. Slavery, abitrary executions, and a backwards economy are the best ways to characterise Korea at this time. What the 1400's have to do with it is beyond my comprehension. However, I would be interested in how you think the 1400's are relevant.
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| it is true that there were koreans who welcomed japanese occupation, most of them from yangban class who feared any kind of reform movents such as tonghak. |
Someone on your team is telling fibs. What is it? Did the yangban constitute half the population or was it a limited club?
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| again another evidence that you're rather ignorant about the specifics of the reform movements around that time. the general trend was to move away from china (and the popular sentiment was rather anti-china at that moment) so i don't know why it would've been a "hermit kingdon which conducts its business through beijing." |
There was a pro Chinese section of the Korean court in the late 1800's. Basically, the Korean court was split into different camps, each backing a different foreign power. I am surprised you don't know this considering that you studied this at university. The reformists had a common goal, but couldn't agree on how to meet it.
These events split the Korean court into pro-Chinese, pro-Japanese, pro-United States, and pro-Russian factions, each of which influenced policy until the final annexation of Korea by Japan in 1910. Meanwhile, various Korean reform movements sought to get underway, influenced by either Japanese or American progressives.
http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/11.htm
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| but i've met many koreans over the years and gotten the sentiment that the generation who actually experienced the occupation period (how many have you talked to?) didn't "welcome" japanese as you claim they did. funny, huh? |
It is funny. It's a trend. Suddenly the blank cheques, and apologies are coming out so everyone suddenly remembers how downtrodden they were. The most vocal Koreans are the members of cheongryo who moan about the evil Japanese who habitually discriminate against them. Strangely, these people continue to reside in Japan. Funny, huh?
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| but don't try to convince anybody else with whatever shallow knowledge you've gleaned from reading a couple books as "facts." |
Roll on amateur united. I am only ever persuaded by evidence. That should tell you something about the books I have read, and the position I am taking. Come and join the team. Oranges and lucozade at half time.
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| p.s while i'd like to discuss in korean, i'm not so confident in my ability to speak korean so i'll stick to english. sorry folks |
You might well make more sense talking in another language. |
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