Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Starperson]

Hmmm...this is what usually occurs to me as I ponder this ridiculous subject:
English comes from Britain. When America was first settles by whiteys, they would've had a British accent mixed in with Spanish and any other settler accents. So they were mutts from the start.
Australia's been settled much more recently, and we were settled by the British.
How can the American accent be 'standard'? It's ludicrous. We're all mutts. Get over it, you standard-accent people. It's only standard because of all your sitcoms and movies.

[Gord]

[Ilsanman]

I think it is just an excuse for hagwon owners to lowball certain countries. Ireland and South African are becoming the new targets.

As a Canadian, I am immune to being lowballed. Lucky me.

[buddy bradley]

[Arthur Fonzerelli]

[Interested]

It's actually true that American English is more conservative than British English. Contrary to popular belief, it is infact British English (or rather Standard BE) that has evolved much more than it's American counterpart. This is not a critism or compliment to either variety. It's just a "fact" I learnt when I studied linguistics at University. Think about the R you hear in the Standard American caR. It's the British who have dropped the R - not the Americans who have gained it.

Shakespeare spoken with an American accent is therefore in some ways more "authentic" than when spoken with a British accent. However, times have changed and many people, including my American friends, prefer to hear Shakespeare performed by British actors. It sounds more dramatic and theatrical to the modern ear. But this is just a preference.

Koreans do chase after the American accent - this is because they see it as the accent with the most status. If I was a status obsessed Korean I would probably try to speak with an American accent.

However, having said that...I speak French with an English accent (rather than try to perfect the standard Parisian accent) because I don't feel Parisian - I feel English - it's an identity thing....and many French people tell me my English accent is very sexy and cute!!!

I tell my students that they can go after any accent they like. It's my belief that a Korean accent is as good as any other, as long as they pronounce their words clearly. I warn them however, other people may have prejudices about their accent.

What I do think is important, though, is that they UNDERSTAND different accents. I have met several Korean businessmen who spoke very good fluent English...but having only exposed themselves to the American variety discovered that they were unable to communicate effectively with most the people they dealt with because guess what...shock horror...most people they did business were not from America or Canada!!! They were from Singapore or Hong Kong or Britain or Japan or Germany!!! Well fancy that!! I've made a pretty penny from some of these businessmen as they have been eager to pay for the opportunity to practice speaking to someone with an accent other than American.

Another misconception many Koreans labour under is the strange belief that the British and American varieties are bordering on being two different languages. The number of times I've had to explain that they are mutually intelligible and that the major difference is accent and with some minor difference in vocabulary. They are surprised to learn that there are very few grammatical differences and that 99% of vocabulary is the same.

I've also found Korean students educated in the UK are very proud of their British accents and take care to cultivate them. Some feel it makes them a cut above the rest. Personally, I think this attitude is as silly as that of Koreans favouring the American "sound."

There's been a lot of nonsense on this board about accentless English. EVERYBODY speaks with an accent - unless they're dumb.

[Toby]

To those talking about accents - there is only one.

The Queen has it.

[dogbert]

[billbile]

"If I was Korean, I would want to learn American English. When I was learning Mandarin in Taiwan, I demanded that the speaker use Standard Mandarin (Beijing-style) because it is the standard. I hate Taiwanese pronunciation; it's sloppy-like.
American English is Standard English. I mean, jeepers, who the hell wants to sound like an Australian?!"

American English is not standard English. There is no standard English. This is exactly the point. At no time has any one nation's English been appointed as standard English. And realistically, I can't see how that can happen. Is it the United Nation's job, for instance, to worry about standards for an international language? Nope, for two reasons. 1. there is no requirement for any language to have a standard which everyone must use. 2. The United Nations would rather not waste time and money on such a useless objective.

And the point we forget very easily is that LISTENING is every bit as important as SPEAKING, in English communication. And if either you or the American government, say, appointed "American English" as the world standard, if the power to do that somehow existed, would the English, the Scots, the Irish, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Indians, the Europeans, the South Africans, and so on and so on suddenly start marching in lockstep and cast away their ghastly accents? Nope. The same listening problems would exist for Koreans or any communicators in English, including some Americans it would seem.

And what is or isn't standard in Korea is also irrelevant: Koreans learning English to communicate only with other Koreans in Korea might find it more efficient just to use Korean!

Communication has two parts, LISTENING and SPEAKING. That is, UNDERSTANDING and BEING UNDERSTOOD. This combination is the definition of GOOD ENGLISH. People can speak how they like so long as they are understood. They can even have a Korean accent and survive very well. People also need wide exposure to understand the vast body of English speakers.

The following is a very good point, a quote from Interested: "What I do think is important, though, is that they UNDERSTAND different accents. I have met several Korean businessmen who spoke very good fluent English...but having only exposed themselves to the American variety discovered that they were unable to communicate effectively with most the people they dealt with because guess what...shock horror...most people they did business were not from America or Canada!!! They were from Singapore or Hong Kong or Britain or Japan or Germany!!! Well fancy that!! I've made a pretty penny from some of these businessmen as they have been eager to pay for the opportunity to practice speaking to someone with an accent other than American."

And it is increasingly common for companies which need English speakers who hire Koreans, even American companies, to use Australians and British to conduct interviews with them. Why? It is to weed out the many Koreans who are, regrettably, not effective enough at communicating in English.

[Gord]

[billbile]

But in language standard is taken generally to mean the language which people speak within a language community in order to be understood. In some countries the government puts up one area as a standard of that language. For example the Korean government holds out Seoul as standard, and Koreans switch into it to communicate with each other; for example someone from Taegu and someone from Kwangjoo...and whether this is because the Korean within each region is very different or it is a lack of exposure is another matter. Koreans are taught 'correct Korean pronunciation' is schools. English speakers are not, unless they have a particularly eccentric teacher. It is assumed they will pick it up from their environment.

See here: English is an international language and yet the world government does not hold out American (or New York or London or whatever) English as standard because there is no world government. And even if there was, would it bother holding out a standard? Most unlikely, given the way English speakers perceive their language. English speakers within a country would probably ignore the creation of a standard: how many English speakers that you know can, will, or want to change their accent? It would mean that creating a standard would prove fruitless. The same problems and the same situation will subsist.

This is where English is different from Japanese and Korean and a lot of other languages.

Especially given that English is an international language. When you watch international news programmes, and you see, say, an Indian interviewing an Australian, do they switch into "American" to communicate? Not really, because they can understand each other through having been exposed to hearing English as an international language, in all its multifarious glory.

And this is the failing in Korea: Not only are the facts above not taught to Koreans, also English is misconceived as an American language and not an international language. Add the fact that many Koreans, when at a good or excellent level of proficiency in English, seek to use further study time getting exact American accents when it is NOT necessary instead of seeking to expand their listening ability when it IS necessary, and you can see the problem. And this is where I aim my criticism. I'm not really talking about the basic level for beginners.

[Gord]

[billbile]

Good enough, for the sake of this argument then, I will concede that "American" English is standard (ie common) in entertainment shows (though a lot of the time it can depend on where you live and on what TV stations you see). The overwhelming majority of viewing for most non-English language communities will be in their own langugae, dubbed, or with subtitles. This is in any case only important if entertainment shows are considered important - which is dubious.

However in most industries (besides entertainment) where communication is required in English, people need to be good at both speaking and listening; and regardless of your accent, if you are a crap listener then you probably can't get or hold a job in such an industry.

Since few English speakers think that there is any such thing as Standard English (except perhaps their own or that of their city) and since learners of English will be engaging with these English speakers if they are in an industry where English communication is required, they will need to accept the conditions of their environment to survive there. One main condition is that, practically, English has no standard (by this I mean that English speakers do not use English in such a way that a standard exists) and to be a good communicator (and effective in business) you need to be good at listening to a broad range of accents.

So no, practically, as well as politically, there is no such thing as standard English.

[Interested]

While I agree with what most of what Billbile says I have to disagree on there being no such thing as a standard English.

America and Britain both have their standards which often have to be learned by children from poorer backgrounds or regional areas when they begin school.

[I might add that these two standards are actually very similar. Far far similar than say the Chinese spoken in Beijing and that spoken in Shanghai. Standard Brit English and Standard Amer E have very few grammatical differences - some dialects of English differ much more from Standard Brit English than does Standard Amer English]

As a child growing up in northern England, I used one dialect of English with my friends and the standard dialect (sometimes known as Received Pronounciation or BBC English or the Queen's English) in the classroom (albeit still spoken with a northern accent).

The dialect I used in the playground was very different from the national standard and is not easily understood by someone just arriving from say South Africa or America. The pronunciation is very different and it also had a slightly different grammar and vocabulary.

I suspect that Billbile comes from downunder and that's why he believes that a standard doesn't have to be learnt by native speakers. Australian English is very close to the standard British English. There is no grammatical difference (that I could percieve anyway) and the pronunciation between those two varieties is much closer than say that of Standard British English and Northumbrian English. The beginnings of regional varieties are only just emerging in Australia.

Here is an example of a grammatical difference between standard British English and a dialect spoken in the Newcastle area.

In the latter it is possible to have two modal verbs following each other:

ex: I would could have called you if I had known your number.

This is not possible in standard British English. You would need to say: I would have been able to call you if I had known your number.

Gord is wrong when he says that American English is the international standard. There are two main varieties taught in the world. One of them is American, one is British. In Europe, China and India it is almost always the British standard that is taught (certainly the standard taught at state schools in China and India and most of Europe). About half the world's population reside in those 3 areas.

However, as some nations like Singapore and India develop, they are becoming more and more proud of their own varieties. You will now find many Indian publications printed in Indian English rather than British English (which is still the variety taught in schools). There is an ongoing debate in Singapore about whether or not the British standard should be replaced by "Singlish" as the language of education.