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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| DougieG wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
"Dress for success! Dress for success!" Oh please.  Beyond a job interview, exactly what does it matter for most of you, and who do you think you're fooling? Yes, we call them "business suits", but don't let's get presumptuous about that. If you're a Western guy in Korea in your 20s, 30s, even 40s and beyond, then aside from not wanting to appear an utter raggamuffin, how spiffily you're dressed or how dashing you want to imagine yourself matters not a whit.
While you do lose points for being a slob, dressing like a GQ model isn't going to convince any of us that you aren't a kindie klown, a uni lecturer monkey, a hagwon marsupial, a corporate f**ked-up English fixer-upper boy, etc. Your job and doing it as professionally as you can -- that's where real success comes from, not from masquerading as an investment banker.
As for the 99% of foreigners in suits that "look like bums who have just stumbled out of a Salvation Army soup kitchen", they win my respect for sartorial sensibility, and several number among my coolest and very closest friends in Korea or anywhere. The other 1%, they win everyone's derision and snickers for being jumped-up, self-delusional little pillocks. |
Shame that one percent is more than likely have the best jobs, not to mention keep them, irrespective of ability. I wonder how they do it? |
Shame that you have absolutely no proof that they are more likely to "have the best job". And even more shame that you are blatently putting forth your completely unsupported opinion as fact. |
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Bee Positive
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| DougieG wrote: |
| Though I still stand by my earlier statement: 99 percent of foreigners wearing suits in this country look like bums who have just stumbled out of a Salvation Army soup kitchen. |
Common problems with guys and suits:
-- Younger guys right out of university and into their first "real" job here won't have spent that much time in a suit. I'm sure quite a few buy their very first custom-tailored suit in Itaewon, their first collection of neckties from the bins in Namdaemoon. Their mothers may have picked out and paid for every suit they've previously worn.
-- Others come from jobs back home where wearing a suit might look overly formal or pretentious. Again, just not much experience selecting and wearing a suit & tie.
-- Badly tailored or off-the-rack suits that are ill-fitting.
-- Trying to get away with wearing old suits which are out of style AND which no longer fit. Have seen quite a few gangly types, and what I'd call the "squeezed toothpaste tube" look -- tight fitting around the mid-section and shoulders, while the head, the hands and the feet all seem to jut out or protrude from the holes.  We say women look good when they seem to've been "poured into" their dresses, but guys who "really fill out" their suits look bulbous, ungainly and oafish.
-- The "unkempt, unshaven, dishevelled person in decent suit" look. Seen it plenty of times.
People might notice that I don't attack other posters here, I try to keep things friendly, and generally mind my manners when in Dave's, despite how mean and nasty many discussions become. Well, I'm just saving it up for one mad post from Hell, which I think I'll start allowing myself once a year from now on.
And this, I've decided, is going to be it for 2005. Here's where I get to be the rudest, crudest, most arrogant, classist jerk I possibly can, the smelliest skunk ever to crash an ESL garden party. So hold onto your hats, Davers, as the Guru steps out of character, unzips, and draws a bead on your cornflakes. (Read no further if you'd like to continue thinking of me as _a nice guy_. Seriously.)
"Dress for success! Dress for success!" Oh please. Beyond a job interview, exactly what does it matter for most of you, and who do you think you're fooling? Yes, we call them "business suits", but don't let's get presumptuous about that. If you're a Western guy in Korea in your 20s, 30s, even 40s and beyond, then aside from not wanting to appear an utter raggamuffin, how spiffily you're dressed or how dashing you want to imagine yourself matters not a whit.
While you do lose points for being a slob, dressing like a GQ model isn't going to convince any of us that you aren't a kindie klown, a uni lecturer monkey, a hagwon marsupial, a corporate f**ked-up English fixer-upper boy, etc. Your job and doing it as professionally as you can -- that's where real success comes from, not from masquerading as an investment banker.
As for the 99% of foreigners in suits that "look like bums who have just stumbled out of a Salvation Army soup kitchen", they win my respect for sartorial sensibility, and several number among my coolest and very closest friends in Korea or anywhere. The other 1%, they win everyone's derision and snickers for being jumped-up, self-delusional little pillocks.
The Guru, removing his Calvins from his head, sez:
HAND  |
Very entertaining, and yes, you make a good point.
Even though I started this suit business, I more than half agree with you.
However, there's dressing for success, and then there's dressing JUST TO FIT IN. Not to belabor the issue, but that was really the entire point of my original post. If everyone else is wearing a suit, and you do too, well then, you've just successfully . . . camouflaged yourself.
The beauty of it is this: You're still you. Wearing a suit merely effects a small change (or perhaps not so small) in how others see you. Inwardly, you may be thinking and feeling anything at all. You may be thinking, "Damn this dress-for-success nonsense!"
Which is why I say, slap on the suit, parade around in the uniform which makes you blend in, AND IN EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE DO AS YOU PLEASE.
Making this one small concession, you may find, will help you secure that freedom.
BEE POSITIVE |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| Bee Positive wrote: |
Here's my slightly different take on physical appearance in Korea:
If you're a man, wear a suit and a tie. You might lose the tie in summer, if coworkers are doing so. But the suit should be conservative (grey or black), and of course has to be worn with an Oxford shirt. Wear good leather dress shoes, always, and keep them shined on a fairly regular basis.
Don't wear any facial hair at all. Keep the hair on your head trimmed short.
No visible tattoos or anything else "weird."
What I've just described amounts to THE UNIFORM for Korean men, whatever their profession, beyond university. Exceptions are manual laborers, wearers of other uniforms (police, military, fast food), and the occasional little old man in hanbok.
I'll be frank in saying that I myself do something of a double take, and even register a bit of discomfort on occasion, when I encounter other waygooks in the street. Why? NOT because they look non-Asian, and NEVER because they're overweight/underweight/too short/too tall, or any other such thing. It's the blue jeans, the backpack, the funky hairdo. It's even, in all honesty, the semi-conservative looking guy in his late twenties or above who . . . well . . . may be wearing slacks and a collared shirt, but isn't in a suit.
Wear the suit and you'll fit in here. NO BACKPACK, either. Look at what the Korean men carry. That's right: the man purse. Get one, if you've got stuff to carry.
I remember a couple of years back sitting down to a pizza at Sbarro's in Seoul. (Now gone, sadly.) I was wearing the regulation dark suit and tie. At the next table were a couple of English teachers who were dressed . . . well . . . like undergraduates. These bozos were openly snickering at my outfit and making snide remarks ("Maybe he's German or something": whatever that's supposed to mean!), and I just sat there thinking, "Look around you, bozos! NO ONE DRESSES THE WAY YOU DO! DON'T YOU GET IT?"
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Dress for college when on a college campus back home. Here in Korea, EVEN IF YOU'RE TEACHING KINDERGARTEN, invest in a good couple of suits as soon as you possibly can. Trim the hair above your ears. You'll be amazed at how you start blending in here.
Forget weight loss. Fat Korean guys blend right in if they're dressed right. You can too. GET A SUIT. ESPECIALLY if you're a kindergarten teacher.
And yes, I've landed good jobs, beyond my expectation even, on what are frankly very slim credentials. (BA in English, nothing else.) I'm a tad tubby myself, short, not exactly handsome. None of that matters. I wear a suit, and of course when going to an interview I wear a tie as well. That's it. That's what you've got to do.
BEE POSITIVE |
Especially if you're a kindergarten teacher? You are taking the piss, right?
20-something Canadian guy in a suit in Canada: a salesman, job interview candidate, Jehovah's Witness, or very insecure teacher / TA.
20-something Canadian guy in a suit in Korea: a public school, university, or adult academy teacher playing it smart.
One of the things I love about leaving my small town where everyone knows who I am is dressing like a slob. Seoul in summer? Tank top, shorts, bare feet and sandels. Korean Bumpkinville in summer? Still in trousers, docs, and a collared shirt. When people ask what I do, if I'm well dressed I say I'm a high school teacher; if I'm not I say I'm an English teacher. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| Bee Positive wrote: |
Here's my slightly different take on physical appearance in Korea:
If you're a man, wear a suit and a tie. You might lose the tie in summer, if coworkers are doing so. But the suit should be conservative (grey or black), and of course has to be worn with an Oxford shirt. Wear good leather dress shoes, always, and keep them shined on a fairly regular basis.
Don't wear any facial hair at all. Keep the hair on your head trimmed short.
No visible tattoos or anything else "weird."
What I've just described amounts to THE UNIFORM for Korean men, whatever their profession, beyond university. Exceptions are manual laborers, wearers of other uniforms (police, military, fast food), and the occasional little old man in hanbok.
I'll be frank in saying that I myself do something of a double take, and even register a bit of discomfort on occasion, when I encounter other waygooks in the street. Why? NOT because they look non-Asian, and NEVER because they're overweight/underweight/too short/too tall, or any other such thing. It's the blue jeans, the backpack, the funky hairdo. It's even, in all honesty, the semi-conservative looking guy in his late twenties or above who . . . well . . . may be wearing slacks and a collared shirt, but isn't in a suit.
Wear the suit and you'll fit in here. NO BACKPACK, either. Look at what the Korean men carry. That's right: the man purse. Get one, if you've got stuff to carry.
I remember a couple of years back sitting down to a pizza at Sbarro's in Seoul. (Now gone, sadly.) I was wearing the regulation dark suit and tie. At the next table were a couple of English teachers who were dressed . . . well . . . like undergraduates. These bozos were openly snickering at my outfit and making snide remarks ("Maybe he's German or something": whatever that's supposed to mean!), and I just sat there thinking, "Look around you, bozos! NO ONE DRESSES THE WAY YOU DO! DON'T YOU GET IT?"
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Dress for college when on a college campus back home. Here in Korea, EVEN IF YOU'RE TEACHING KINDERGARTEN, invest in a good couple of suits as soon as you possibly can. Trim the hair above your ears. You'll be amazed at how you start blending in here.
Forget weight loss. Fat Korean guys blend right in if they're dressed right. You can too. GET A SUIT. ESPECIALLY if you're a kindergarten teacher.
And yes, I've landed good jobs, beyond my expectation even, on what are frankly very slim credentials. (BA in English, nothing else.) I'm a tad tubby myself, short, not exactly handsome. None of that matters. I wear a suit, and of course when going to an interview I wear a tie as well. That's it. That's what you've got to do.
BEE POSITIVE |
Ever seen photos of Bill Gates? How many times have you seen him wearing a neck tie? I personally have never seen him wearing one. If the richest man in the world doesn't have to, why should a kindergarten teacher have to?
I see what you are saying, but unless you are in business or teaching in a business environment, wearing a suit everyday is stupid. There are only two people at my school who wear a suit everday: The principal and VP.
As for suggesting having a "man purse" are you serious? I'd rather have a dog chomp my nuts and have me made a girl than use one of those. Ever heard of a BRIEFCASE? I see Korean guys using those FAR more than a "man purse". (Seriously, were you drunk when you thought that up?)
I would never laugh if I saw you wearing a suit. I would presume you are working for a business or teaching businessmen, or perhaps a university professor. If I for some reason worked at a hawgwon and saw you wearing a suit everyday, I would think you had a few cards missing from your deck, or that your nose was brown from being in the Managers arse all the time.
Suits are a uniform of sorts yes, but that uniform is used in certain professions in this country. Hawgwons are definately NOT one of them. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. pink wins.
A suit... teaching kindergarden... puhahahaha. Don't be stupid. I once made the mistake of wearing good jeans in a kindergarden class. During cut and paste one little heathen decided to cut shapes in my jeans. He earned himself a trip to the corner for that. If I'd been wearing a decent suit, it'd be a trip out the window.
And then there's paint. And oil crayons. and glue. To wear a suit in that combat zone would be friggin' rediciulous. As is your suggestion: one can dress well and be presentable without wearing a suit. A big, fat cigar is a good start. |
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Bee Positive
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| babtangee wrote: |
Mr. pink wins.
A suit... teaching kindergarden... puhahahaha. Don't be stupid. I once made the mistake of wearing good jeans in a kindergarden class. During cut and paste one little heathen decided to cut shapes in my jeans. He earned himself a trip to the corner for that. If I'd been wearing a decent suit, it'd be a trip out the window.
And then there's paint. And oil crayons. and glue. To wear a suit in that combat zone would be friggin' rediciulous. As is your suggestion: one can dress well and be presentable without wearing a suit. A big, fat cigar is a good start. |
OK, true enough. At my first, nightmare job here in Korea five years ago, half my clothes were ruined by vicious little tykes assaulting me with board markers.
Nonetheless, I challenge you to walk down Jongno, or around Kangnam, and simply count the number of men over age 25 wearing suits. Count the number NOT wearing them. Surely I can't be alone in observing that Korean men wear suits as a rule. Or maybe I just spent too much time out of the hakwon scene, working for lawyers. All I ever saw was business attire. I'd have looked so, so out of place in blue jeans. Even now, back at work in a hakwon, my male colleagues wear suits and ties more often than not. The female teachers are likewise smartly outfitted as a rule.
Korean women have a bit more latitude with dress. Makeup is indispensable, though. We men have it quite a bit easier here in Korea: shower, shave, slap on the suit and tie, and you're done in 10 minutes.
I notice a lot of foreigners standing out like sore thumbs simply because they're not "appropriately dressed."
Flashback to looking at old library copies of tourguides to New York and other big cities, dating from the 1950s and even 60s. Remember reading that you must wear a coat and tie (if you're a man), MINIMUM, to be admitted to most restaurants, and to be deemed socially acceptable generally. A particular passage from a contemporary Seattle guide comes back to me: The restaurant proprietor was so completely absorbed in what he was doing managing his business that he might--gasp!--greet you at the door in shirtsleeves!--but please overlook this small indiscretion, since he's genuinely committed to providing you good service.
South Korea today, in so many ways, is like a kind of flashback to the America of the 1950s. Just think 1950s, act and dress accordingly, and I GUARANTEE you that you'll find life here more negotiable than you would otherwise.
Again, what goes on within the space between your ears is your own business. I, for one, have ideological reasons for needing camouflage (I'm a communist), and a simple, straightforward desire to make my everyday life flow more smoothly. Beyond any question, Koreans register the conservative look (tailor-made suit, smart highly polished calfskin dress shoes, conservative haircut and overall well-groomed appearance), and treat me with just a tad more deference than they might otherwise. (Yes, at just under age 40, I get a lot of honorifics--annyeongha-SHIMNIGGA, eoseo-o-SHIPSHIO, etc., from shop owners, store clerks, et al.)
Call me pompous or proud, if you will, but I like it that way. Life is just so much easier.
BEE POSITIVE |
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stumptown
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Location: Paju: Wife beating capital of Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| As for suggesting having a "man purse" are you serious? I'd rather have a dog chomp my nuts and have me made a girl than use one of those. Ever heard of a BRIEFCASE? I see Korean guys using those FAR more than a "man purse". (Seriously, were you drunk when you thought that up?) |
Hilarious |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Bee Positive,
I like the idea of wearing a suit to school but I'll never do it at the school I'm at except on presentation days as I teach younger children. As one poster already said, that's like suit suicide! 
The thing I really want to comment on is this perceived deference you say you receive in a suit. At almost 40, you'll receive an �ȳ� �Ͻʴϱ� from most people as you're of the age to deserve it regardless of attire. As for the � ���ʽÿ�... I'm only 26 and I dress casual most of the time and I receive that everywhere as it is the standard greeting offered to customers.
Still though, a suit can be good if you're teaching older students and want to look professional.  |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I still see no reason why it should make a difference when you're not at or around work. Should I wear a suit if I go to Japan for a trip because people there will treat me with more respect? Who cares? Who cares if either Seoulites or Vancouverites think I look like a bum? I don't care how they dress and can't be bothered to worry about what they think of me. I enjoy looking professional at work and looking like a slob when I'm not. |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I still remember what a foreign co-worker told me about what his Korean g/f said about suits: "Isn't it nice how Korean men dress up when they go out drinking?" All that my friend was noticing was one of the natty dressers hurling all over the street...all the g/f noticed was the suits. Strange. Different viewpoints, I guess. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Bee Positive:
Suits are the uniform of businessmen. I don't know how many times this has to be said. It is NOT the uniform of Korea. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, or been around the block enough to notice all the people NOT wearing suits.
In education there are different levels of professionalism. Are you seriously trying to say that in a hawgwon you will go far if you wear a suit? Working for a hawgwon is like working at a McDonalds, EXCEPT you do not have any chance at those nice blue manager shirts. High school or university teachers may opt for wearing a suit, I can tell you when I was in university 50% of my professors didn't wear a suit, they dressed business casual.
Anyways, your grip on reality was lost when you mentioned the "man purses". |
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hojucandy
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| Bee Positive wrote: |
Wear the suit and you'll fit in here. |
i have absolutely no desire to "fit in here".
anyway - yu are way off the mark. NONE of the koreans i have worked with in 4.5 years here have ever worn suits at work. NONE. not even the boss. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| DougieG wrote: |
| SuperHero wrote: |
| I buy my ties from Andrews Ties. Since I started wearing higher quality ties I've had many people (foriegn & Korean) comment on my ties - no one ever did that with the cheap ones. |
Wearing good quality ties is very important. While Andrews sells the best quality budget ties in Korea, I've found their colours to be somewhat dated and a little too last season for my liking. Mail order from the UK is the only way to go in my books. Sure they cost more but the English have what it takes when it comes to sartorial splendour. Though I still stand by my earlier statement: 99 percent of foreigners wearing suits in this country look like bums who have just stumbled out of a Salvation Army soup kitchen. |
When I first began working in Korea I'd wear a suit everyday. During a teacher's training course, a middle school teacher offered me shirts and ties she claimed, I could have. I politely refused. A week later, I entertained a first year Korean elementary teacher in my apartment, who asked me if I was poor due to the clothes I wore emphasizing, 'that is why Mrs Kang offered you the clothing. I was floored. So I opened my wardrobe and showed her my labels; Hugo Boss ties/jackets; Cashmere trench coat, silk shirts(bought these to Korea as I dressed to look expensive as a consultant back in the west) and assorted silk ties; Pierre Cardin;Country Toad; Kings Road, etc, etc.
Went shopping the next day and bought 7 Korean suits, half a doz. 90,000 won shirts on sale(+ties="service"). Got nothing but compilments from then on. You must look Korean in dress standard in order to blend in easily and be taken seriously. An easily affordable image makeover which I'm sure made "life" easier In many "other" ways too.. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Wear a suit! |
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| DougieG wrote: |
| SuperHero wrote: |
| I buy my ties from Andrews Ties. Since I started wearing higher quality ties I've had many people (foriegn & Korean) comment on my ties - no one ever did that with the cheap ones. |
Wearing good quality ties is very important. While Andrews sells the best quality budget ties in Korea, I've found their colours to be somewhat dated and a little too last season for my liking. Mail order from the UK is the only way to go in my books. Sure they cost more but the English have what it takes when it comes to sartorial splendour. Though I still stand by my earlier statement: 99 percent of foreigners wearing suits in this country look like bums who have just stumbled out of a Salvation Army soup kitchen. |
Can't say I saw any foreigners(English teachers) in suits apart from a French guy renewing his French language teaching contract in all of my 3 years on the ROK.
When I first began working in Korea I'd wear a suit everyday. During a teacher's training course, a middle school teacher offered me shirts and ties she claimed, I could have. I politely refused. A week later, I entertained a first year Korean elementary teacher in my apartment, who asked me if I was poor due to the clothes I wore emphasizing, 'that is why Mrs Kang offered you the clothing. I was floored. So, I opened my wardrobe and showed her my labels; Hugo Boss ties/jackets; Cashmere trench coat, silk shirts(bought these to Korea as I'd always dress to look expensive as a consultant back in the west; had to at the rates i was charging clients) and assorted silk ties; Pierre Cardin;Country Toad; Kings Road, etc, etc.
It occured to me then that Koreans have their own conformist fashion sense that they take note and adhere to earnestly.
So rather than push Italian, English, European fashion down Koreans throats, went shopping the next day and bought 7 Korean suits, half a doz. 90,000 won shirts on sale(+ties="service"). Got nothing but compilments from then on.
One must look Korean in dress standard in order to blend in easily and be taken seriously(as a professional). An easily affordable image makeover which I'm sure made "life" easier In many "other" ways too. |
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Bee Positive
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
Bee Positive:
Suits are the uniform of businessmen. I don't know how many times this has to be said. It is NOT the uniform of Korea. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, or been around the block enough to notice all the people NOT wearing suits.
In education there are different levels of professionalism. Are you seriously trying to say that in a hawgwon you will go far if you wear a suit? Working for a hawgwon is like working at a McDonalds, EXCEPT you do not have any chance at those nice blue manager shirts. High school or university teachers may opt for wearing a suit, I can tell you when I was in university 50% of my professors didn't wear a suit, they dressed business casual.
Anyways, your grip on reality was lost when you mentioned the "man purses". |
Respectfully, I think that I'm in fact more in touch with reality than you are.
Reality for you, evidently, is culturally dictated. OK, so it's culturally dictated for all of us. But for you, the "man purses" are so outlandish that you won't even consider getting one.
Reality for me, meanwhile, is to a large extent what I see and experience on a day-to-day basis in the world which I live in. Here in Korea, I see men in suits more often than not. If they've got things to carry, they carry them around, more often than not, in black leather cases which may or may not come with shoulder straps attached.
I got the suit, got the black-leather shoulder bag (which I almost never carry now, as it happens, since I don't need it), and apart from my blue eyes, I blend right into the Korean scene.
That's it. THAT's reality. "Res" is the Latin for "thing," and the things that I see and experience on a day-to-day basis here are, in effect, my reality while in Korea.
Back home in the States, I might be seen as overdressed if I went around town in a suit. This just goes to show that America is degenerate. It's been dressing down as rapidly as it's been throwing off anything resembling morals or decency or common sense. A whole bunch of cool California cats back home are paying for the war in Iraq, and they'll be paying for the wars in Iran and Syria right up until the day that Russia nukes their sorry-ass dressed-down little personas.
That reality is something I left behind. The new reality is Korea. It's a little more formal than back home, something of a fifties throwback. The men I work with and see out and about on the street almost always wear suits. So do I.
BEE+ |
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