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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Ya-ta Boy"]
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Since the anti-Americanism that is so common on the ground in Canada far pre-dates the present administration, is it realistic to think that if this administration changed a few trade policy decisions that the pre-existing attitudes would disappear? That's naive, in my opinion.
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Maybe not so naive....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-12-22-canada-pm_x.htm
Particularly check out the eighth paragraph if you would be so kind. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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In a November poll, 73% of Canadians expressed an unfavorable view of Bush, according to results by Innovative Research. In the same poll, though, 68% said they had a favorable view of Americans.
The results show "that the rising tide of anti-Americanism in this country is driven not out of a dislike for the American people but as a visceral dislike of Mr. Bush and the war in Iraq," Rudyard Griffiths
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Ummm...
#1. About 8 months ago I posted a quote from an article on Asia Times Online that said about 2 in 3 Canadians have a positive view of the US. This poll reports about the same figures. It also says by implication that 1 in 3 Canadians have a negative view. That's been my perception of the Canadians I run into here in Korea. Canadians and NotAmericans. No matter what the US does, the NotAmericans are not going to change their views. It's their freaking identity.
I re-state: the NotAmericans are not going to go away. It's naive to think they will.
Since it is impossible for us to keep track of which of you are favorable but opposed to Bush and which of you are contemptuous of us and opposed to Bush, it is up to you to make the distinction. Harsh reality.
#2.
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"When there are no issues, you turn to the anti-American stuff. It always plays," says David Biette, director of the Canada Institute at the Woodrow Wilson International Center, a think tank in Washington.
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Curious about your thoughts on this comment.
My reaction, and I don't know why, is that it calls into question the 68% favorable response.
#3. This is from the joke thread. I think it says more about the attitudes under discussion than anything else.
(By Hanson)
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject:
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Four people are in a train compartment. A beautiful, 20-year-old European girl, an old European woman, a 30-something Canadian guy and a 30-something year old American guy.
The train enters a tunnel, the lights go out and a few seconds later they hear the sound of a slap in the face. Another few seconds and they exit the tunnel, all of them wondering what happened.
The old woman thinks: "One of those two guys must have made a pass at the young woman, hence the slap. Good for her..."
The young woman thinks: "One of those two guys must have made a pass at me and touched the old woman instead, by mistake. Hence the slap..."
The Canadian guy thinks: "I can't wait for another tunnel so I can slap that American guy again!" |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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In a November poll, 73% of Canadians expressed an unfavorable view of Bush, according to results by Innovative Research. In the same poll, though, 68% said they had a favorable view of Americans.
The results show "that the rising tide of anti-Americanism in this country is driven not out of a dislike for the American people but as a visceral dislike of Mr. Bush and the war in Iraq," Rudyard Griffiths
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Ummm...
#1. About 8 months ago I posted a quote from an article on Asia Times Online that said about 2 in 3 Canadians have a positive view of the US. This poll reports about the same figures. It also says by implication that 1 in 3 Canadians have a negative view. That's been my perception of the Canadians I run into here in Korea. Canadians and NotAmericans. No matter what the US does, the NotAmericans are not going to change their views. It's their freaking identity.
I re-state: the NotAmericans are not going to go away. It's naive to think they will.
Since it is impossible for us to keep track of which of you are favorable but opposed to Bush and which of you are contemptuous of us and opposed to Bush, it is up to you to make the distinction. Harsh reality.
#2.
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"When there are no issues, you turn to the anti-American stuff. It always plays," says David Biette, director of the Canada Institute at the Woodrow Wilson International Center, a think tank in Washington.
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Curious about your thoughts on this comment.
My reaction, and I don't know why, is that it calls into question the 68% favorable response.
#3. This is from the joke thread. I think it says more about the attitudes under discussion than anything else.
(By Hanson)
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Four people are in a train compartment. A beautiful, 20-year-old European girl, an old European woman, a 30-something Canadian guy and a 30-something year old American guy.
The train enters a tunnel, the lights go out and a few seconds later they hear the sound of a slap in the face. Another few seconds and they exit the tunnel, all of them wondering what happened.
The old woman thinks: "One of those two guys must have made a pass at the young woman, hence the slap. Good for her..."
The young woman thinks: "One of those two guys must have made a pass at me and touched the old woman instead, by mistake. Hence the slap..."
The Canadian guy thinks: "I can't wait for another tunnel so I can slap that American guy again!" |
(numbers are yours)
1. My purpose in posting the link was to show, that overall more Canadians (and a commanding majority to boot) have a favourable view of America. That being the case, one can pretty much ignore the malcontents who whine about America as they are a minority. A vocal minority to be sure, but a minority nevertheless. And a good many of these who are in the minority tend to be angry at certain U.S. policies (as these have negatively impacted their jobs) not the U.S. people as a whole. Should the U.S take more favourable actions towards Canada I'm sure a fair number of the minority would eventually switch camps. Only those whose opinions towards the U.S are 'set in stone' would continue to bash the U.S. and that would be a small minority indeed.
2. The anti-American stuff plays to the above minority. If the majority is split, harvesting the minority can make the difference between winning or losing an election. Yes it's sad that politicans have to pander to certain groups, but that's the case pretty much over the world. Would Bush have won re-election without making certain concessions to certain special interest groups?
3. Personally I think it says more about the attitude of the single POSTER who posted the above , but then again that's just me. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And a good many of these who are in the minority tend to be angry at certain U.S. policies (as these have negatively impacted their jobs) not the U.S. people as a whole. |
One reason that the so-called minority view (I'm not sure that it's a minority in Canada, but neither am I certain that it's more than that) is so painful and tends to alienate some or perhaps many of us in the U.S. is that this distinction is always cited, and, frankly, I have a hard time believing it is real.
The antiAmerican criticism is bitter, no matter if it comes from critical Canadians or the so-called NotAmericans. And this bitterness feeds and feeds back on the general hate that's out there and leads to many savage attacks against U.S. citizens and/or private interests everywhere. That is, whether they are critical Canadians, NotAmericans, or Middle Eastern terrorists, or any other U.S.-hater, they all tend to nod their heads in whole-hearted agreement whenever they speak on the evils of the Great Satan. ("See?," they might ask rhetorically, "we aren't the only ones who feel this way." -- and I've heard that question asked quite a lot as justification.)
How, for example, can the Chileans who I saw stand up and applaud 9/11 say that they don't have anything against the U.S. people when it was mostly civilians who were savagely killed that day, when they clearly derived pleasure from this terrible event?
Or how could Chile's The Clinic say that the American civilians who were decapitated in the Middle East show that we in the U.S. are only reaping what we have sown.
How can they knock any and all U.S. accomplishments like landing the lander on Mars saying that we only want to go there to build another McDonalds? Why is it so difficult for the U.S. "critics" out there to recognize a single positive quality about the United States? Why might such a grudging recognition always be accompanied by a "...but"?
How, therefore, can people on this board refer to U.S. "defensiveness" and resistance to criticism when bitter criticism is all that we tend to hear from abroad, especially, these days, from Canada?
I agree with Ya-ta: if you are a Canadian and you don't feel this general bitterness toward the U.S. but you disagree with W. Bush's govt, then you should distinguish your views from the haters because to us it all looks the same.
http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/rpt/19691.htm
-- please note that this pattern of political violence predates even the H.W. Bush Administration, so please refrain from saying it is all because of W. Bush's worldview and policies, or suggest that as soon as W. Bush goes away, all of the antiAmericanism will go away, too. Please also note that this pattern did not abate during the Clinton years either. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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In fact, here's one from Toronto, Canada, which, according to some Canadian posters, was not anti-U.S. during the Clinton Administration, even, according to some, treating him like a rock star:
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March 24�-25, 1999 � Toronto, Canada
Demonstrations in front of the U.S. Consulate General by crowds of about 1,500�-2,000 Serbian sympathizers protesting NATO actions in Kosovo erupted into major violence on two consecutive evenings. On March 24, 1999, small crowd of peaceful demonstrators had been in front of the consulate all afternoon. After dark, the number of protesters increased rapidly and the group became violent. Intermixed with children carrying candles and their parents, an element of younger demonstrators bombarded the consulate with rocks, eggs, and burning flares--breaking nearly every window on the front of the building and covering much of the working spaces inside with glass, rotten eggs, and debris. Some of the burning flares landed on the roof, but no fires resulted. Off-guard police arrested eight demonstrators, but were not present in sufficient numbers to prevent the building from being pelted with eggs at close range and windows from being broken by fist-sized rocks.
The demonstration continued until about 11:00 p.m. when it was dispersed by police reinforcements. The pattern was repeated on March 25, 1999, with another day-long peaceful protest evolving into violence. At approximately 10 p.m., part of the crowd of over 2,000 began tossing paint and eggs at the consulate. Shortly thereafter, numerous protesters surged past police and tossed two Molotov cocktails. One burned against the facade of the consulate and the other went through a broken window causing limited fire damage to a consulate office. The crowd then dispersed, although several hundred continued throwing garbage and knocking over newspaper vending machines on nearby streets. |
http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/rpt/23133.htm |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And a good many of these who are in the minority tend to be angry at certain U.S. policies (as these have negatively impacted their jobs) not the U.S. people as a whole. |
(1) One reason that the so-called minority view (I'm not sure that it's a minority in Canada, but neither am I certain that it's more than that) is so painful and tends to alienate some or perhaps many of us in the U.S. is that this distinction is always cited, and, frankly, I have a hard time believing it is real.
(2)The antiAmerican criticism is bitter, no matter if it comes from critical Canadians or the so-called NotAmericans. And this bitterness feeds and feeds back on the general hate that's out there and leads to many savage attacks against U.S. citizens and/or private interests everywhere. That is, whether they are critical Canadians, NotAmericans, or Middle Eastern terrorists, or any other U.S.-hater, they all tend to nod their heads in whole-hearted agreement whenever they speak on the evils of the Great Satan. ("See?," they might ask rhetorically, "we aren't the only ones who feel this way." -- and I've heard that question asked quite a lot as justification.)
(3) How, for example, can the Chileans who I saw stand up and applaud 9/11 say that they don't have anything against the U.S. people when it was mostly civilians who were savagely killed that day, when they clearly derived pleasure from this terrible event?
Or how could Chile's The Clinic say that the American civilians who were decapitated in the Middle East show that we in the U.S. are only reaping what we have sown.
How can they knock any and all U.S. accomplishments like landing the lander on Mars saying that we only want to go there to build another McDonalds? Why is it so difficult for the U.S. "critics" out there to recognize a single positive quality about the United States? Why might such a grudging recognition always be accompanied by a "...but"?
(4) How, therefore, can people on this board refer to U.S. "defensiveness" and resistance to criticism when bitter criticism is all that we tend to hear from abroad, especially, these days, from Canada?
(5) I agree with Ya-ta: if you are a Canadian and you don't feel this general bitterness toward the U.S. but you disagree with W. Bush's govt, then you should distinguish your views from the haters because to us it all looks the same.
http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/rpt/19691.htm
(6) -- please note that this pattern of political violence predates even the H.W. Bush Administration, so please refrain from saying it is all because of W. Bush's worldview and policies, or suggest that as soon as W. Bush goes away, all of the antiAmericanism will go away, too. Please also note that this pattern did not abate during the Clinton years either. |
(numbers are mine)
1. ALL the available evidence in polls and surveys tends to point to the fact that it IS indeed a minority. Both Mr. Ya-ta Boy and myself have read polls indicating this...there is even a link to a recent poll on this very thread. If you have evidence to the contrary please post it. Regardless of what you personally think...that's not evidence.
2. "savage attacks?" ONE incident in Canada? Those were people of Serbian descent and a bunch of street thugs (the latter which are found everywhere). Regardless Canada is one of the safest places for Americans to travel to and do business. Note here that I am ONLY speaking for CANADA and not for any other country. (I shall return to this point later)
3. Ignore the Chileans for the moment please and focus on the topic we are discussing which is anti-Americanism in CANADA. You know how Canada responded on that day? We didn't say "Well, you bought it on yourself, go get lost" or anything like that. We took in as many American planes as we could handle, put the passengers up at hotels and fed them. In a number of cases, PRIVATE civilians took a number of travelers into their OWN homes. How did AMERICA respond? Not even an offical "thank you" (that I am aware of). Not that we really wanted one, but it's nice to be noticed.
4. Better criticism than bombs no? And again everything points to a vocal minority. Maybe the fact that they are so vocal leads you to over-estimate the bitterness that Canada feels.
5. I don't feel bitterness towards the U.S. nor do I disagree with W. Bush's government. I don't like some of the things either have done, but in general I agree with most of their policies. Just not towards Canada with regards to trade
6. I promised that I would get back to this. I was speaking for CANADA and only CANADA. Don't bring other countries into this. The level of anti-americanism has risen in Canada due to the Iraq war and other related issues Bush has done in his time in office. But it is still a minority as shown by polls and surveys. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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All right, Urban Myth: you make sense and you make some good points here.
Still do not accept your point no. 1. I said "I'm not certain"; I was not citing evidence or offering a conclusion. Will agree to suspend judgment on the issue, however.
I'll discuss Canada as separate from the rest of the world, however, if you can refrain from using the cliche anti-U.S. disclaimer that I've heard all over the world: "I really don't have anything against the American people, it's just the govt or its foreign policy." I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing that from Chile, to Argentina, to some in Brazil, and to many of the Canadians who post on this board.
As the aftermath of the McVeigh bombing clearly showed: the U.S. people work in the U.S. govt. And I'll further remind you, much of our diplomacy and trade is made by a non-elected professional bureaucracy at Foggy Bottom and elsewhere, not to mention by inputs from many corporate and other special interest groups who are all, ultimately, Americans just like me. This is "the govt.," the vast majority of the govt., that is.
So the American people vs. the American govt distinction is not exactly valid. The same as, if you'll forgive me, Chileans are going to have to accept that Pinochet is a Chilean man, raised in a Chilean family, and he learned and applied Chilean worldviews in his govt.
This being said, if more Canadians could voice their issues as you do in no. 5, above, the debate might be much more civilized. For one thing, I, too, like many Americans, take issue with some foreign policy and trade activity as conducted by Washington. So, on that note of probable agreement between us, have a good night. |
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