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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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By the way, can I just say that I do believe in God, but that He hasn't turned out to be the sort of God that I would make up for myself.
My "ideal God" would be more predictable. He would not associate with people who make me feel embarrassed. He would reliably show up, like Superman, in situations that we all find alarming and scary. He would have sent a redeemer in an era which included digital cameras so we could all agree on what this redeemer said, even if we couldn't always get consensus on how to interpret it. He would make it harder for me to make mistakes. He would have entrusted the Bible to people who had broad cultural perspectives and egalitarian views on women and slaves.
That said, I can only believe in the God that I know and have come to trust. He makes choices that are weird to me, but I have felt His presence, and seen it in the lives of people close to me. His Love is more powerful than any philosophy I've ever read. His nearness is palpable, and I have seen miracles I can't dispute.
Please understand that I will defend God, but it's not because I always agree with him.  |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
By the way, can I just say that I do believe in God, but that He hasn't turned out to be the sort of God that I would make up for myself.
My "ideal God" would be more predictable. He would not associate with people who make me feel embarrassed. He would reliably show up, like Superman, in situations that we all find alarming and scary. He would have sent a redeemer in an era which included digital cameras so we could all agree on what this redeemer said, even if we couldn't always get consensus on how to interpret it. He would make it harder for me to make mistakes. He would have entrusted the Bible to people who had broad cultural perspectives and egalitarian views on women and slaves.
That said, I can only believe in the God that I know and have come to trust. He makes choices that are weird to me, but I have felt His presence, and seen it in the lives of people close to me. His Love is more powerful than any philosophy I've ever read. His nearness is palpable, and I have seen miracles I can't dispute.
Please understand that I will defend God, but it's not because I always agree with him. |
I really like what you say there Kermo.
Interesting how we try to form our own view of God based upon our own worldviews and experiences in life. I think many of the pictures people see today about God, angles and the like are very misleading.
Interesting though in the Old Testament there were prophesies about Jesus throughout the centuries leading up to His coming. The Israelites killed the prophets, claiming they were heretics. The religious folk of the day of Jesus said that they wouldn��t do such things. Jesus did miracles before the eyes of the religious and secular folk, yet they still didn't believe and put Him to death also. If Jesus came today, I think it would be the same, people will see miracles and still deny, either the miracles or the fact that they were done by God.
Satori, I respect where you are coming from, many of us Christians have been in the place where you are at now. You had an offer from fiveeagles to go and prove or disprove claims of the miraculous. The time it would take you would be the length of a meeting. Maybe a couple hours or so. Wouldn't it give some credibility to your arguments by actually being there to see what happens or even speak to people who may claim a miracle? As it is you can argue the physical, visual aspects of the discussion, but if you never go and experience and / or research the spiritual claims, your arguement lacks some weight.
You can be a lion in a den of Daniels for one night
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
I really like what you say there Kermo. |
Thanks, I appreciate that.
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The Israelites killed the prophets, claiming they were heretics.
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Which prophets are you talking about? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
I really like what you say there Kermo. |
Thanks, I appreciate that.
| Quote: |
The Israelites killed the prophets, claiming they were heretics.
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Which prophets are you talking about? |
I meant the Old Testament prophets. Probably should have said persecuted in my sentence also.
5:11-12 --- 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
In Matt 23:23 - 33 when Jesus goes off at the religous leaders for their poor example and accuses them of being guilty for the blood of the prophets
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
I was also thinking in regards to Jesus life of miracles that the Pharisees saw as being of the devil. Also the talk between Jesus and the religous leaders in John 7 - 9.
As far as Biblical prophets who wrote:
According to tradition Isaiah was martyred under Manasseh,
Jeremiah was martyred about 584 after being taken captive to Egypt by his fellow countrymen who tried to flee Nebuchadnezzar
The prophet Ezekiel was martyred for the exposure of the idolatry of the elders of Israel
(to note a few).
Also, the mention of accounts throughout the historical books (1 & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 Kings) that highlight persecution and death of prophets and also the example of John the Baptist.
Have you read the book 'Jesus Freaks'. That is an interesting one that gives the stories of the deaths of the Apostles, early church fathers and various people from all walks of life and countries throughout history. So pretty cruel stuff in there, but also in inspiring read. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I was confused because you said "The Israelites" when my recollection is that the leadership/establishment were chiefly the ones unhappy with prophets. I see what you mean, though. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Well, I don't feel strongly enough about my non belief in miracles for me to go along to a meeting so I can then come on here and say "Ha, told ya, I went along and there were no miracles". That would be petty and mean spirited. As you said to me Kermo, you believe whatever makes you happy...  |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Well, I don't feel strongly enough about my non belief in miracles for me to go along to a meeting so I can then come on here and say "Ha, told ya, I went along and there were no miracles". That would be petty and mean spirited. As you said to me Kermo, you believe whatever makes you happy... |
Wow-- do you mean to sound that arrogant? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Well, I don't feel strongly enough about my non belief in miracles for me to go along to a meeting so I can then come on here and say "Ha, told ya, I went along and there were no miracles". That would be petty and mean spirited. As you said to me Kermo, you believe whatever makes you happy... |
Wow-- do you mean to sound that arrogant? |
That's not arrogance. I don't believe in miracles, simple as that. I should be allowed to not believe in them, as much as you should be allowed to believe in them. You did say this to me, right?
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| but you can believe whatever you like |
Seems you're looking for an insult where there none ... |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Kermo wrote: |
Wow-- do you mean to sound that arrogant? |
That's not arrogance. I don't believe in miracles, simple as that. I should be allowed to not believe in them, as much as you should be allowed to believe in them. You did say this to me, right? |
No, it's not your belief that is arrogant.
Upon first reading it sounded like you could single-handedly dismantle my belief system. Upon second reading, it sounded more like you were graciously refraining from publicly debunking my beliefs.
I'd like to think that if you came, and you were suddenly healed of a birth defect or found yourself speaking an African dialect, then I wouldn't say "Ha! You came along and there was a miracle!" and threaten to publicly out you as a fool for not believing.
You're saying you're expecting to go and see nothing supernatural. You've said that anyone who sees something is deluded. I guess it's slightly arrogant to assume that you are the only one capable of correctly judging reality.
I think the most reasonable position would be to keep an open mind. I would settle for a less overtly callow tone.
*edited to fix quotes*
Last edited by kermo on Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Well, I don't feel strongly enough about my non belief in miracles for me to go along to a meeting so I can then come on here and say "Ha, told ya, I went along and there were no miracles". That would be petty and mean spirited. As you said to me Kermo, you believe whatever makes you happy... |
I wouldn't recommend any religion just because it makes them feel happy. I believe there has to be some evidence to it also (not to do away with elements of faith though).
But after reading your talk with Kermo, I wasn't thinking it was arragant (though you presume you will see nothing and be correct) as much as it was (I don't mean this as an insult) ignorant. I say that because you believe only what you see (which is understandable at times) and will not take a look at something you argue against so passionately.
You know, miracles happen all the time and not just physical. Among many good things that occur due to miracles, one is increasing or giving faith to those lacking faith. Another reason for the skeptic or weak in faith to investigate such meetings.
But I don't wish to push you so much on the issue. I think you should know where I am coming from in the above comment. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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May I ask you an honest question?
It seems to me that your faith depends a lot upon miracles.
Why is that?
"I almost got angry the other day when a religious person said to me that only someone who believes in the resurrection of the body and in the glorified body of the risen Christ can believe in the living Jesus ... Let me explain it in my way. The glorified body of Jesus in to be found in his sayings."
- Albert Schweitzer, from a sermon he preached at St. Nicholai's Church on Sunday, November 19th, 1905 (Reverance for Life, p. 65) |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Well, I don't feel strongly enough about my non belief in miracles for me to go along to a meeting so I can then come on here and say "Ha, told ya, I went along and there were no miracles". That would be petty and mean spirited. As you said to me Kermo, you believe whatever makes you happy... |
Wow-- do you mean to sound that arrogant? |
That's not arrogance. I don't believe in miracles, simple as that. I should be allowed to not believe in them, as much as you should be allowed to believe in them. You did say this to me, right?
| Quote: |
| but you can believe whatever you like |
Seems you're looking for an insult where there none ... |
Satori, it isn't as simple as that, because of your attitude towards those who believe in them. God anoints those who preach his word with power. He is a God of signs and wonders. Those signs and wonders should mark the way to truth.
For example, He is a God of compassion so He brings healing to people.
| Quote: |
May I ask you an honest question?
It seems to me that your faith depends a lot upon miracles.
Why is that? |
Did I answer your question? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
May I ask you an honest question?
It seems to me that your faith depends a lot upon miracles.
Why is that?
"I almost got angry the other day when a religious person said to me that only someone who believes in the resurrection of the body and in the glorified body of the risen Christ can believe in the living Jesus ... Let me explain it in my way. The glorified body of Jesus in to be found in his sayings."
- Albert Schweitzer, from a sermon he preached at St. Nicholai's Church on Sunday, November 19th, 1905 (Reverance for Life, p. 65) |
I agree that the words of Jesus are EXTREMELY important.
I was only talking about miracles in light of the topic of the thread and there relevance to Christian faith. fiveeagles offered Satori to go to a certain conference to see for himself. I was noting that he can see for himself in order to argue with some valid experience, rather than from a distance without ever going to see for oneself. Really, imagine if someone you know is healed of something, has to make you think about things a bit. That was the context. If a disussion took a tact toward historical issues or theological issues, I would gladly follow the thread and emphasise why those issues are important also. I don't have, nor would I encourage anyone to have an emphasis on miracles, but also not to disregard them as they have always been valid.
Healings and miracles are great, but they pale into comparison to other things that I believe are more important, like loving other people, helping the poor, caring for the sick etc. There are some 'miracles' that I would disregard also.
Francis of Assisi said "always preach the Gospel and if necessary, use words". EG: Live it!
This miracle about fillings isn't new. I have heard of (though not experienced) this type of thing before. It has been reported for many years in many countries. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="fiveeagles"]
God anoints those who preach his word with power. He is a God of signs and wonders. Those signs and wonders should mark the way to truth. |
well said fiveeagles.
As stated in one of my previous posts, miracles can increase, give or at least open people hearts and minds up to the idea that there is something more than the immediate physical realm that they see and experience.
It is a spiritual experience that may affect the physical. If we are more than a physical being and have a spirit, encountering such things has to have an impact on a person. But how they deal with it after that is up to them. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks,
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As stated in one of my previous posts, miracles can increase, give or at least open people hearts and minds up to the idea that there is something more than the immediate physical realm that they see and experience.
It is a spiritual experience that may affect the physical. If we are more than a physical being and have a spirit, encountering such things has to have an impact on a person. But how they deal with it after that is up to them. |
Exactly. In God's mercy, God offers up evidence for his Existence and people can either believe or not. |
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