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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiliz wrote: |
| Bush and Blair told us there were WMD ..they were wrong. why can't the 'senior..unnamed...general also be wrong? why are you putting so much credence on this persons statement? |
The U.S., British, and several other govts, including many Middle Eastern states, believed that Saddam possessed and was willing to use chemical weapons.
He also had a nuclear program on the shelf, waiting for the UN sanctions and inspections to go away to be restarted.
In any case, Saddam's WMD program was his centerpiece for deterring and dealing with Iran, which he always considered his top threat, as well as his own dissidents internally.
It was not until several weeks before Gulf War II that Saddam convened his top military staff and told him that he had been bluffing about the WMDs, playing cat and mouse with the UN, for no apparent reason (except perhaps not to let Iran and internal dissidents know that he was vulnerable).
The U.S. and Britain appear to have learned this only after the war.
W. Bush could have been less political in his use (and abuse) of the U.S. intelligence community on this issue.
It was still not a lie. It was an error, perhaps not made entirely in good faith, but an error nonetheless.
People wedded to the antiwar propaganda have a hard time dealing with this reality. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| sundubuman wrote: |
| Do you really believe that Bush KNEW there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq prior to the invasion (when , btw, virtually every single Israeli family had prepared a "safe room" with gas masks within their homes???) |
That is exactly what they believe. |
Yes, let's just ignore the FACT that the UN weapons inspection team had informed Bush - and the world at large - that they had ZERO evidence of WMDs and needed only MONTHS to make a final confirmation of this.
Disingenious. Sick. Disgusting. Putrid. |
| Quote: |
| WASHINGTON (CNN) -- About two weeks before deciding to invade Iraq, President Bush was told by CIA Director George Tenet there was a "slam dunk case" that dictator Saddam Hussein had unconventional weapons, according to a new book by Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward |
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/18/woodward.book/
Saddam had fooled the IAEC in the late 80s about his nuclear program
Saddam used WMDs against his own citizens
Saddam had lots of equipment that he wasn't supposed to have.
Saddam tried to hide his WMD programs from the UN until at least 1996.
Bill Clinton bombed Iraq in 1998 because Saddam refused to cooperate with UN inspectors.
Saddam was trying to get North Korea's newest missile.
Saddam was one of the great killers of all time.
That is a lot of reason to believe that Saddam had WMDs but I don't think WMDs was the real reason for the war.
As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria |
Based on what? And yes, we all know he was a *beep* and did terrible things, but do you have any evidence for the above claim? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bronski wrote: |
| Quote: |
As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria |
Based on what? And yes, we all know he was a *beep* and did terrible things, but do you have any evidence for the above claim? |
| Quote: |
Saddam Sent WMD to Syria, Former General Alleges
By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
February 02, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - A former Iraqi general alleges that in June 2002 Saddam Hussein transported weapons of mass destruction out of the country to Syria aboard several refitted commercial jets, under the pretense of conducting a humanitarian mission for flood victims.
That's one of several dramatic claims made in the book by former Iraqi General Georges Sada: "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein." Since the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Sada has served as the spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and continues to serve as national security advisor. He is the former vice marshal of the Iraqi Air Force. Sada was interviewed at the headquarters of Cybercast News Service on Jan. 30.
Sada contends that Saddam took advantage of a June 4, 2002, irrigation dam collapse in Zeyzoun, Syria, to ship the weapons under cover of an aid project to the flooded region.
"[Saddam] said 'Okay, Iraq is going to do an air bridge to help Syria," Sada recounted. Two commercial jets, a 747 and 727, were converted to cargo jets, in order to carry raw materials and equipment related to WMD projects, Sada said. The passenger seats, galleys, toilets and storage compartments were removed and new flooring was installed, he claimed. Hundreds of tons of chemicals were reportedly included in the cargo shipments. [See Video]
"They used to do two sorties a day," said Sada. "Fifty-six sorties were done between Baghdad and Damascus."
Sada said he obtained the information from two Iraq Airways captains who were reportedly flying the sorties. "They came immediately and they told me," said Sada.
This is not the first time that the possibility of a transfer of WMDs from Iraq to Syria has been raised. Two years ago, U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, (R-Kan), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD went to Syria." No details were forthcoming. The claims have also been made by the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria. |
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200602%5CSPE20060202a.html
How is that? |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I know all of you MM haters out there live by what is said on FoxNews, home of the lying liars and even some of the Bush Crime Family. So this is an example of some of their world famous Fair and Balanced reporting:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
scroll down to the 4th story and watch some video manipulation at its finest, Foxnews, we report you decide indeed. |
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Cigar_Guy
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
I know all of you MM haters out there live by what is said on FoxNews, home of the lying liars and even some of the Bush Crime Family. So this is an example of some of their world famous Fair and Balanced reporting:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
scroll down to the 4th story and watch some video manipulation at its finest, Foxnews, we report you decide indeed. |
Don't mean to take the wind out of your sails, bucko, but I don't now, nor have I ever in the past watched Fox News. Not to say I haven't flipped through the channels and stopped for a few minutes if there was an interesting guest on. But I've never sat down in front of the TV and said "What I really want to watch is [any program on Fox News]." Contrary to what makes you comfortable, lots of conservatives simply don't get their news straight from Fox or TV in general (no, I'm not trying to sidestep the fact that I read their stuff online but don't watch it on TV--I don't).
Frankly, they could be photo-shopping Michael Moore with his arm around Bin Laden and I still wouldn't tune in. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: ... |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
Many (perhaps all) of us were there in 2003 when this went down...
Were you sitting in, behind closed doors, in warplanning councils? |
No, and I never implied that I was, but you're missing my point.
I was watching CNN's coverage of the Bush address to the UN (Nov. 2002?).
They prefaced it with something like: this address should include the evidence we've been waiting for.
The president went on, and that's exactly what he did: he went on and on about history. No new evidence.
In March of 2003, he told Russia that he was talking about action in terms of "weeks and days", not "months and years".
Then, he gave Iraq 48 hours "to disarm".
Iraq was stating that they had disarmed.
And the rest is history.
UN inspectors were there until the week before the invasion stating that they hadn't found any WMD.
Members of the US administration told Hans Blix that they didn't care if the UN sank into the East River.
Rummy, on a visit to Germany, was dressed down by the German foreign minister, demanding that his people needed evidence.
In the ride-up to the war, Bush kept referring to [damning] evidence he'd seen.
On the website where I was posting, A bunch of pro-war mukluks insisted that, having been past members of the intelligence community, they HAD seen damning evidence of Iraq's WMD program, but couldn't talk about it beause they weren't allowed to.
Back home, it took no time before we were pouring French wine down sewers and chomping "freedom fries". Someone in that little Bush circle even chided France as being "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" because they didn't join the sad excuse for a "coalition" that had been assembled.
Again, the bottom line is this: an apparent majority of Americans were up for a war.
As such, it wasn't politically risky at all.
A large portion of the conservative wing gets off on war.
That's also why Clinton tossed a couple cruise missiles around indiscriminately after the Kenya bombings. No complaints from the GOP constituency, and he'd have been labeled limp-wristed if he hadn't.
And that's what the 2004 election was about. A crappy president was re-elected because the pro-war crowd wanted to save face.
But c'mon. Be fair with Bush, but let's string up Michael Moore.
He "misrepresented" things.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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If Saddam had given up his war and his revolutionary agenda there would have been no war.
Khaddafy of Libya gave up his war - most of it anyway and the US doesn't bother him.
Military action took place cause the other side wouldn't give up their war. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: ... |
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Was that what you were saying in March of 2003?
What WERE you saying back then? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Was that what you were saying in March of 2003?
What WERE you saying back then? |
I was complaining about Korea visa laws. Ask BullSaJo and the Urban Myth I used to argue with them I never made a post about the war until well after it was underway. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Bronski wrote: |
| Quote: |
As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria |
Based on what? And yes, we all know he was a *beep* and did terrible things, but do you have any evidence for the above claim? |
| Quote: |
Saddam Sent WMD to Syria, Former General Alleges
By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
February 02, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - A former Iraqi general alleges that in June 2002 Saddam Hussein transported weapons of mass destruction out of the country to Syria aboard several refitted commercial jets, under the pretense of conducting a humanitarian mission for flood victims.
That's one of several dramatic claims made in the book by former Iraqi General Georges Sada: "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein." Since the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Sada has served as the spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and continues to serve as national security advisor. He is the former vice marshal of the Iraqi Air Force. Sada was interviewed at the headquarters of Cybercast News Service on Jan. 30.
Sada contends that Saddam took advantage of a June 4, 2002, irrigation dam collapse in Zeyzoun, Syria, to ship the weapons under cover of an aid project to the flooded region.
"[Saddam] said 'Okay, Iraq is going to do an air bridge to help Syria," Sada recounted. Two commercial jets, a 747 and 727, were converted to cargo jets, in order to carry raw materials and equipment related to WMD projects, Sada said. The passenger seats, galleys, toilets and storage compartments were removed and new flooring was installed, he claimed. Hundreds of tons of chemicals were reportedly included in the cargo shipments. [See Video]
"They used to do two sorties a day," said Sada. "Fifty-six sorties were done between Baghdad and Damascus."
Sada said he obtained the information from two Iraq Airways captains who were reportedly flying the sorties. "They came immediately and they told me," said Sada.
This is not the first time that the possibility of a transfer of WMDs from Iraq to Syria has been raised. Two years ago, U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, (R-Kan), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD went to Syria." No details were forthcoming. The claims have also been made by the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria. |
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200602%5CSPE20060202a.html
How is that? |
I'll concede that it's possible the weapons were flown to Syria, but the word of a former Iraqi general with a political interest to align with the American right certainly isn't rock hard evidence. Neither were the cartoon drawings of trucks that Colin Powell offered in his pre-war speech to the U.N. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Bronski wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Bronski wrote: |
| Quote: |
As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria |
Based on what? And yes, we all know he was a *beep* and did terrible things, but do you have any evidence for the above claim? |
| Quote: |
Saddam Sent WMD to Syria, Former General Alleges
By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
February 02, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - A former Iraqi general alleges that in June 2002 Saddam Hussein transported weapons of mass destruction out of the country to Syria aboard several refitted commercial jets, under the pretense of conducting a humanitarian mission for flood victims.
That's one of several dramatic claims made in the book by former Iraqi General Georges Sada: "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein." Since the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Sada has served as the spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and continues to serve as national security advisor. He is the former vice marshal of the Iraqi Air Force. Sada was interviewed at the headquarters of Cybercast News Service on Jan. 30.
Sada contends that Saddam took advantage of a June 4, 2002, irrigation dam collapse in Zeyzoun, Syria, to ship the weapons under cover of an aid project to the flooded region.
"[Saddam] said 'Okay, Iraq is going to do an air bridge to help Syria," Sada recounted. Two commercial jets, a 747 and 727, were converted to cargo jets, in order to carry raw materials and equipment related to WMD projects, Sada said. The passenger seats, galleys, toilets and storage compartments were removed and new flooring was installed, he claimed. Hundreds of tons of chemicals were reportedly included in the cargo shipments. [See Video]
"They used to do two sorties a day," said Sada. "Fifty-six sorties were done between Baghdad and Damascus."
Sada said he obtained the information from two Iraq Airways captains who were reportedly flying the sorties. "They came immediately and they told me," said Sada.
This is not the first time that the possibility of a transfer of WMDs from Iraq to Syria has been raised. Two years ago, U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, (R-Kan), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD went to Syria." No details were forthcoming. The claims have also been made by the U.S.-based Reform Party of Syria. |
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200602%5CSPE20060202a.html
How is that? |
I'll concede that it's possible the weapons were flown to Syria, but the word of a former Iraqi general with a political interest to align with the American right certainly isn't rock hard evidence. Neither were the cartoon drawings of trucks that Colin Powell offered in his pre-war speech to the U.N. |
That is my opinion. That is why I said "As for Saddam's WMDs I think he probably sent stuff to Syria " Because I don't think that Saddam would go through all the trouble of just pretending he had stuff. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Fair enough. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: ... |
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So, as I said, Saddam was saying, "Iraq has no WMD".
In March of 2003, he wasn't saying anything about his "revolutionary war".
In March of 2003, Bush didn't say he was going to stop his "revolutionary war".
He said he was going to "disarm" Hussein.
If it's ok to invade a country to disarm them when they have nothing to disarm, then you are free to pre-emptively disarm anyone.
This is a silly, unconstitutional recipe for, well, homicidal silliness. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
So, as I said, Saddam was saying, "Iraq has no WMD".
In March of 2003, he wasn't saying anything about his "revolutionary war".
In March of 2003, Bush didn't say he was going to stop his "revolutionary war".
He said he was going to "disarm" Hussein.
If it's ok to invade a country to disarm them when they have nothing to disarm, then you are free to pre-emptively disarm anyone.
This is a silly, unconstitutional recipe for, well, homicidal silliness. |
If Bush had said the (what I think was the) real reason it would have made it harder for Saudi Arabia to comply with the demands of the US.
And Saddams' Iraq wasnt' just any nation. Saddam was an enemy and one of the greatest killers of the 20th century, who had used WMDs and wanted WMDS.
Bush thought Saddam had WMDs but that wasnt' the true reason for the war ( in my opinion.) |
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