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Iraqi city of Amara taken by Al-Sadr militia
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TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:49 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

The reason some of those involved in Gulf War I who opposed this invasion from the beginning was a potential quagmire.

Some of the more "realist" oriented critics predicted the quagmire, I think, and probably some of the leftists. ."

None of the ones who predicted that the U.S would stay in Iraq "forever" did though. The longer this insurgency drags on, the more popular opinion turns against it. I can't seriously think the U.S public would condone staying in Iraq year after year while causalties amount..and indeed that is starting to look the case as Bush's ratings decline. 10 or so years at most I'd think. Probably less.

Okay maybe the "NO ONE" was a little strong although I don't remember anyone specific on here who insisted the war would turn into a quagmire on the outset.
I do recall there was a fair amount of gloating over how quick Saddam's army was fading away...and that hapless minister who kept insisting they were defeating the infidels.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:51 am Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER??????????

This is just so stunning, I feel very sorry for you.

The Kurds are doing well by all accounts.

Three or so of the provinces are now in Iraqi hands. Despite the melodramatic news on CNN, most of the violence is occuring in ONE city Baghdad.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:58 am Post subject:

Quote:

Some of the more "realist" oriented critics predicted the quagmire, I think, and probably some of the leftists. The more sentimentalist, anti-American critics probably didn't make that prediction because it would have implied that the USA is something other than an omnipotent monster capabale of forcing its will upon helpless little people around the world.

I would just add to this the most obvious but for some reason overlooked point (although Edward Kennedy, even tipsy, did see it and stated as much).

U.N. Sanctions were working and containment was yielding major concessions. Further, as Blix stated just 11 days prior to U.S. invasion, "no evidence of proscribed activities have so far been found. ....... the exercise of any of our inspection rights are not being impinged" The U.S. of A, violating international law, took their own road and ignored what was working. Containment was yielding results and the Americans threw it in the gutter......like a cheap hooker. Shame on them.

The American people should wake up to that reality. They didn't just get it wrong, they ignored evidence of what was right.

To continue with what Kennedy said at the time and rightly (and what is the most troubling is how Kerry and all the other Democrat cowards let the war happen), "if America had allowed the UN inspections to be continued, war could have been avoided. We were NEVER given a convincing reason by the administration to remove inspectors and launch the invasion."

I would invoke Hart's soliloqy about what brought America into this most questionable military adventure since the invasion of the phillipine? What brought democrats to abandon their own ideals..????

In full,

Quote:

What brought the great Democratic Party, the majority party for much of the twentieth century� Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the party of Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson, the party that successfully led the nation through two world wars and much of the Cold War, the party of the New Deal and the Great Society, the party of great figures and instinctive visionaries, the party of civil rights and gender equality, the party that rescued America from the Great Depression, the party of the blue-collar working class and desperate Dust Bowl farmers, the party that provided the ladder of opportunity for generations of immigrants, the party of virtually all progressive movements for a century�what caused that great and historic political institution to cave in so quickly and so willingly to the most questionable military adventure since the invasion of the Philippines a generation before?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:38 am Post subject:

UM wrote:

Quote:

However it does seem that things are getting better ( I see the escalating violence as a reaction to it)

UM:

Which violence are you referring to? The violence of the Sunni/baathist insurgency, or the violence of the Shiite militias? Because I could maybe sorta see how the insurgency could be commiting acts of violence in order to prevent post-baathist Iraq from becoming governable. But if things really are getting better overall, I can't understand why the Shiite militias are behaving as they are. If the baathists and the Sunni supremacists are indeed losing, what exactly is prompting the Shiite militias to engage in the mass slaughter of Sunnis?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:07 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

UM wrote:

Quote:

However it does seem that things are getting better ( I see the escalating violence as a reaction to it)

Iran?

Not that I necessarily think things are going swimmingly in Iraq.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:17 am Post subject:

Quote:

Iran?

Well, if theocratic Iran is in a position to have its lackeys carry out, with impunity, mass killings inside Iraq, I'd say that rather belies the claim that things are getting better in Iraq.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

UM wrote:

Quote:

However it does seem that things are getting better ( I see the escalating violence as a reaction to it)

Iran?

Not that I necessarily think things are going swimmingly in Iraq.

and why would Iran want an unstable Iraq on its borders? I understand it is overtly pro-shiite, but if the present gov't were to succeed, it wouldn't be a bad thing for Iran in the long run.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

Urban Myth, we said they went into Iraq for the oil . And the adminstration rountinely said the oil was going to pay for the war and the rebuilding. The specific word quagmire was never used but me and hundreds of thousands of other protesters (who can read history books) said that NO Muslim/Arab nation would allow an American occupation. To see this just look 200km to the west in Palestine. Sorry, we were right on every single count and what I really love is that no matter how bad and wrongly it continues to go you still can't admit you were wrong about this unjust and immoral war.

What exactly are you continously 'LOVING!!' about the situation over there? I am an American, I had a picture of naked German women in a park forming the words "NO WAR" (aerial photo Sad

) above my desk (no applause, please Confused

), and I admit that since it started I hoped it would go well for all concerned. It didn't. I am also not surprised, but I am less giggly-gleeful than you. Why the cackling?

Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject:

Because it reminds me that we still live in a world where if you stand up against a bully you can still win. The US is getting exactly what it deserves over there the only shame is that so many Iraqi's had to die to get this across to so many people.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

...if you stand up against a bully you can still win. The US is getting exactly what it deserves...

I thought your only beef was with the W. Bush Administration. Yet here you are, again, expressing glee over America's faults and shortcomings, and, not only that, but also drawing the broadest of general moral conclusions possible. And you have ironically adopted America-style talk on volition and, indeed, you almost sound like a Rocky movie...

Congratulations, Octavius. You are a monument to...something.

Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject:

Lol, ahh gopher thanks.

Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject:

And isn't it the American tradition to cheer for the underdog?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

UM wrote:

Quote:

However it does seem that things are getting better ( I see the escalating violence as a reaction to it)

UM:

Which violence are you referring to? The violence of the Sunni/baathist insurgency, or the violence of the Shiite militias? (1) Because I could maybe sorta see how the insurgency could be commiting acts of violence in order to prevent post-baathist Iraq from becoming governable. But if things really are getting better overall, I can't understand why the Shiite militias are behaving as they are. (2) If the baathists and the Sunni supremacists are indeed losing, what exactly is prompting the Shiite militias to engage in the mass slaughter of Sunnis?

(numbers are mine)

1. I don't understand what you mean by this sentence or at least these words "maybe, sorta see". That has got to be one of the reasons why the insurgency is carrying out this violence If Iraq were governable it would make it far more easy for the U.S and the Iraq government to hunt them down, plus hand the U.S a major propaganda victory. The more ungovernable a country is, the easier it is to hide out...and make the enemy lose heart.

2. Revenge for one. If someone blows up your child/friend/parent.., and you are used to the government not doing anything or at least waiting a long time for it, wouldn't you be tempted in the least to pick up a AK-47 and go hunting?
The Shiites (after showing remarkable restraint) are now seeking payback, not only for the daily attacks that are happening now but likely also for their oppression under Saddam. For all they know the U.S could lose heart and pull out and they could face another Saddam. So it would appear that they are not only getting their licks in while they can, they are also trying to prevent another Saddam style rule by killing as many of his potential supporters as they can. Granted that's only a possibility (but I'd say one that sounds likely)...and don't forget the personal revenge angle.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

And isn't it the American tradition to cheer for the underdog?

Absolutely. And you and I have (apparently) pretty similar views on what is going on in this "fight." I just can't stand to be in your section, hearing you cheer the things you are cheering about the fighters...

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:

Quote:

Revenge for one. If someone blows up your child/friend/parent.., and you are used to the government not doing anything or at least waiting a long time for it, wouldn't you be tempted in the least to pick up a AK-47 and go hunting?

Well, sure. If I were living in a society where the government wasn't doing anything about that. But then I think I would have a bit of difficulty describing such a society as one where things were, to use your terminology, "getting better". I think a "getting better" society would be one where violent insurgencies were put down by the duly-constituted authorities, not by marauding death squads.

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