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Pedophilia, Republicans, Cover-ups, 1994 Elections... 9/11?
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mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Nambucaveman: are you kidding me?

Laogaiguk and I are simply speaking directly here.

Correct me if I am wrong, Laogaiguk, but do you feel that we are flaming or otherwise insulting each other in the last two posts or, as I believe, trying to sort something out -- just, as I said, in direct language? That is how I see it. Perhaps, potentially one of the most productive conversations we've yet had, no?

We are going to lock a thread over this?

I agree. One warning, two somewhat terse but still civil posts, and then yet another warning seems a bit odd.

Nambucaveman

Joined: 03 Aug 2006

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject:

Some posts were split from the thread, so there were more then two posts. The point of my last post was asking people to stay on topic rather then argue about whether calling someone a liar is a flame. NC

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

I disagree. I find it no different from UM using the word "troll" when UM actually believes someone is trolling. The same goes for "liar".

If that is so, then I would also point out that such an allegation is also inappropriate and far from productive.

And I bet Urban would agree, too.

Ideally, we should ignore posts we see as "trolls." Unfortunately, we are human and sometimes respond. Same thing with the "liar" accusation. We should still strive to be better than this.

laogaiguk wrote:

IF you truly believe (which I believe EFLtrainer does) that someone is lying, it is no longer an insult. Do you or UM believe the word "troll" is also 100% an insult. If used just out of the blue, I would surely suggest it is an insult. It's all about context.

I do not see it this way. It is inappropriate. There are other ways to say this, if this is how you or someone else feels about it.

laogaiguk wrote:

But Gopher, might I ask you what this is supposed to do if not provoke... Do you not see the hypocricy of using that statement and the rest of your post?

Maybe. You have thrown that charge against me more than once, though. And here is the "hypocrisy" word again..."On the Other Hand" would have used "inconsistent" or "contradictory." Why can you not see the

difference?

I think maybe our opinons of being PC or direct differ. I consider the current trend not to say what you mean rather stupid (I mean in society). If I think someone is a liar, I should be able to say it, not dance around it. Same goes for anything. But again, there are limits to that. I feel retard or ni.ger are words that have grown insulting over time and should not be used. I don't find troll, liar or hypocrite insults, just saying what I mean.

Maybe you don't like my directness, but others do, and I am asked for my opinion on things like working in Korea, Japan or China or learning languages via PM by newbies a lot. People might not agree with me, but I think they actually respect my directness.

EDIT, though I in no way say I do not go over the top at all. Sometimes I go to far myself. I can also be crude and rude at times, but I'd say about 85-95% of the time with very good reason. Sometimes I make mistakes, but I always apologize.

I think threads sometimes diverge, and I also don't see a problem with that.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:14 am Post subject:

Nambucaveman wrote:

Some posts were split from the thread, so there were more then two posts. The point of my last post was asking people to stay on topic rather then argue about whether calling someone a liar is a flame.

NC

Right then, back on topic. I have another question for Mr. Trainer. Since ordinary people like us know about this video it only stands to reason that those closer to 'the corridors of power' know too and probably a lot sooner than the rest of us...I mean this video is more than 12 years old. If it was scheduled to air on PT TV (as claimed) surely some Democrats would know about this as it is claimed the Republicans did. Why has this not come up in politics? If true it would be the Demos' wet dream an handy tool to bash Bush and his party with.

I call BS on this one. I can't see every single person in both parties willing to keep quiet on this...unless it didn't check out. Anybody (with any tech knowhow) can cut and splice videos together. Doesn't mean it happened.

Unless there is more proof than this video, I think we can now let this thread die.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:04 am Post subject:

Check out this web site: http://www.franklincase.org/ I haven't watched the video yet, but there are some interesting things I found on this web site. I'll leave it to the investigative skills of others to find them. I couldn't handle two threads with EFLT at once.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject:

I agree with Urban that this thread presents a baseless, non-issue in the clothes of front-page news.

There is nothing here, then, but a hysterical allegation. When someone has some direct evidence to introduce, please let me know...

laogaiguk wrote:

You are using "PC" as a substitute adjective for "diplomatic," and this is inaccurate, unless you are claiming credit for redefining terms. "Political correctness" is a historical term, usually referring to heightened sensitivity in the 1990s that quickly became the far left's chief thought-police weapon in academe and in society at large.

"Diplomatic," on the other hand, means disagreeing without being disagreeable. You seem to think that being diplomatic means selling out to "the man" or something similar, when in fact, you are just being rude and, yes, flaming -- especially when people accused of this mendacity are not usually actually lying inasmuch as saying something, or presenting a reasoning-schemata that someone else does not like or does not want to hear.

And "liar" is among the most inappropriate words I can think of with respect to the vocab we use in an argument. Here is the test: how often do you resort to such words in person, when the consequences might be more direct and immediate? Indeed, how often do you say such words ten or so times in a paragraph or two, punctuated with exclamation points in an oral exchange?

Your apparent belief, then, that your noble directness somehow excuses you from being undiplomatic and, indeed, your inability and unwillingness to recognize the need to be (in principle if not always in practice) increasingly diplomatic with people with whom you especially disagree strongly suggests to me that we are not even on the same field (concerning sophistication and other issues).

Thus the impasse, Laogaiguk.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

I disagree, I think calling someone fat when they are fat (though not in an insulting way mind you) is exactly more of what our society needs. I love the Korean way of directness. Many Westerners can't handle it and complain all the time, but I just think they are weak and sensitive.

See bold... Could you please, please stop making amazingly inaccurate assumptions about me (all of which I keep proving to be false)? Why do you have to make ludicrous assumptions like this with practically anyone you argue with? This isn't an attack, but it's absolutely true.

Also, how is calling me rude any different from me calling someone a liar? (in a non-direct way ofcourse)

Quote:

And "liar" is among the most inappropriate words I can think of with respect to the vocab we use in an argument. Here is the test: how often do you resort to such words in person, when the consequences might be more direct and immediate? Indeed, how often do you say such words ten or so times in a paragraph or two, punctuated with exclamation points in an oral exchange?

Your apparent belief, then, that your noble directness somehow excuses you from being undiplomatic and, indeed, your inability and unwillingness to recognize the need to be (in principle if not always in practice) increasingly diplomatic with people with whom you especially disagree strongly suggests to me that we are not even on the same field (concerning sophistication and other issues).

Thus the impasse, Laogaiguk.

All I have to say is again, you are a hypocrite. You have insulted me various times in that post, but you do it in a "polite" way. This is what you do with everyone you argue against. You are not civil in the least (though I know you think you are). You just do it in different ways. You are no different, you just hide it. Why don't you let me know the exact purpose of always using "BLTtrainer" anyway??? My post contained absolutely nothing that could even be construed as an insult, as there was nothing about you, just my opinion and about myself. YOu ask for a civil conversation, and then post that last paragraph. I will not argue with someone who makes up rules and then breaks them. I used the word "I" for this discussion. You consistenly used "you". Goodbye.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

...Goodbye.

I agree; it is pointless to continue to exchange views.

However, you should practice what you preach, then. End this self-righteous crusade of yours to defend one or another poster or defend one or another third party that I and another poster may be discussing. Stop acting like a nagging wife who always needs to contradict her husband.

If you really want to "not argue" anymore, then I propose you stop intervening in my discussions with others and attacking me for my "hypocrisy" and other of your crudisms.

I call it a gentleman's agreement to disagree, esp. where further explicit disagreement will never lead to anything productive between us. You may call it whatever you like. But if you want it to work, stop picking fights with me, bringing up "my record" of offenses, and simply ignore whatever it is that I write that you dislike so intensely...Move on to someone else.

If you want a specific example of what I am referring to, this kind of thing is particularly annoying...

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=69063

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

...Goodbye.

Thank you

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

This s perhaps the best description of gopher I've come across. And, no, this is not a flame, it is simple observation.

To comment on the few, and extremely belated, comments that were actually about the video: please. You gents say you want evidence, yet the video gives evidence. Personal accounts and telephone call recordings, the results of trials in court... none of that is evidence?

That conclusion is completely partisan. Hardly surprising.

Perhaps I will look into this more once I am home.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

[To comment on the few, and extremely belated, comments that were actually about the video: please. You gents say you want evidence, yet the video gives evidence. Personal accounts and telephone call recordings, the results of trials in court... none of that is evidence?

That conclusion is completely partisan. Hardly surprising.

Perhaps I will look into this more once I am home.

How do you know the video isn't actually a bunch of videos all chopped up and pasted together in order to defame Republicans?

Unless you have some more proof...DEFINITE proof, just maybe it would be a good idea to refrain from libeling public figures on this site.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:08 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

EFLtrainer wrote:

[*I* was not warned by anyone about anything. (1) There was a general reminder posted to the board. Another lie. See? That's what you call someone who lies, a liar.

(2) How is it relevant in any way whether the mainstream media has picked up the story again? That makes it true or not? Please. Utterly illogical.

(3) Now, since you HAVE lied, you ARE a liar. Got it? You STILL have not added anything of substance whatsoever to the topic. None. You claim smeaing the video YOU HAVE NOT WATCHED as a Democratic witch hunt WITH NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER is adding to the thread. No, it's lying.

You, sir, are a liar. (4) Name calling is using an epithet that has no meaning or use other than to insult. I have not done that. You have lied. Don't want to be called a liar? Don't lie.

It's the same as Bush calling people who disagree with him cut and runners. That's a lie. He's a liar. You're a liar. Simple.

(numbers are mine)

1. So you are saying that the general reminder does not apply to you?

Any idiot knows this is not what my previous comment implied. So, are you an idiot, or a liar?

Quote:

Anyway I asked a question. I did not say that the mods had asked you to drop the name calling. I ASKED IF THEY HAD. Learn to tell the difference between a question and a comment.

Uh... right.... See, disembling is just another word for.... lying.

Quote:

2. If the mainstream media has not picked up the story it is likely untrue. This would be a huge story if it were true.

I see. So, Iraq being OBVIOUSLY based on lies not being a BIG story until pretty much THIS election means... all the lies we know to be factual are, in fact, lies again?

Spinning also = lying.

Quote:

3. So that it is obvious to all and sundry that you lied about me lying, it is now obvious that you are the liar. Oh the irony!

Spinning again. Sad. Check the polls. You are in the minority at a clip of about 3 to 1. Clue in, eh?

Quote:

4. And that is what you have done. Once again the general reminder applies to you as well as everyone else.

Calling you a liar when you are, as pointed out by my non-friend laogaigook, is not breaking any rule.

Quote:

And once again I did not say "the mods told you to stop name calling" I merely asked a question.

Bullshit.

Quote:

And this is evidence of a lie?

Yes.

Quote:

The only evidence of any lie here is from you. Stop lying about what I have said.

I have not. I need not.

Quote:

And why are you posting a video that dates back years ago? This forum is CURRENT events.

Since *I* found it currently, and no others, save one, had seen it before, it is, in fact, current events. Given the import it carries in showing the republican party to be knee-deep in pedophilia (or hadn't you noticed?), it is, indeed, current events. FURTHER, GIVEN IT IS AN OPEN CASE, IT IS, INDEED, CURRENT EVENTS.

Now let me ask you a question: why have I seen posted here NOT ONE SINGLE WORD OF OUTRAGE AT THE ACTS COMMITTED, NOR A SINGLE WORD ON THE NEED TO AT LEAST CHECK THE FACTS? Do you ondone the acts committed?

Given the Republicans rode to power almost certinly BECAUSE OF the suppression of this investigation, is it NOT current events???

Explain yourself.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:15 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Do you understand the terms "libel" and "public figures?"

Libel means to lie with intent to injure. I have done neither. What public figures? You? Are YOU a public figure? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:18 am Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

Gopher wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

...Goodbye.

Thank you

gopher, you are SUCH a hypocrite. You are just like Bush: someone says something against you, you lable them as something they are not. You post on threads I start or after posts on threads I participate in with nothing more than bile. And you complain when called on it?

Grow up. Take your straw and bailing wire and build some FORTITUDE.

From the very thread you quoted, you *beep*:

Quote:

And Laogaiguk: you are just way too...(whatever. I am not going to go in circles with you and your obstinate density again). Frankly, I find you simplistic and just plain unimaginative, though.

Thank you for the perfect example of what a brain fart you are.

Satori

Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

EFL wrote:

NAVFC wrote:

Oh yes, SOME republicans have been engaged in misconduct so now all republicans are evil.

Reading comprehension: get some. Nowhere did I say all Republicans...

This is by far your biggest backpeddle yet. Review the title you chose for this thread, review your allusions to "Republican administrations" [that is in the plural, in case you cannot read what you yourself wrote Wink

], and, of course, review your standard hyberbole/hysteria...

EFL wrote:

...the year the Republicans took control of Congress and began the destruction of our democracy, our nation.

Also, good job, Wangja. Yes, you are very, very witty. Anything of substance to say here, though..?

Mod Edit: Removed flame remarks.

I read his title and post three times to be sure and ye verily, he is doing no back peddling. He never said "all republicans" anywhere, or even implied it.

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