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inseoul
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: sofa |
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what happened to the sofa protection? i thought they were tried in military tribunals and then let off the hook slowly as attention waines.
it was a hugely publicised case and would have done huge damage to relations in that country.
20 years is more than enough for the most serious rape.
anyway, i feel no need to defend those prickss. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: |
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20 years is enough for most rapes??? Let me ask you, I am assuming you are a man, if I raped you, sodomized you against your will, would 20 years be enough?
Think about that. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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20 years is enough for most rapes??? Let me ask you, I am assuming you are a man, if I raped you, sodomized you against your will, would 20 years be enough?
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If I, or someone close to me, were raped, I would probably want the rapist dragged from behind a truck with a chain around his neck. But as any first-year law student probably knows, the punishment for a particular crime is not determined by what the victim wants. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: |
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OH, that depends on what you see the function of incarceration is.
I don't ask this to be ironic or clever, but, do you feel that prison is more 'about' punishment or protection?
I'm a very tough of crime kinda guy, but at the same time most of the laws in our nations are rubbish. It is far too easy to go to jail. Rape is one of the obvious exceptions.
I think jail is for those who are a danger to society and that social debts can be paid in more beneficial ways. So, for a rape like that, I can think of many different ways that that crime can be made right. But the man should be in prison only in so far as he is likely to do it again. I'm being heavily influenced by Goffman and "labeling theory" in this situation.
It is a bit Utopian, I guess. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: |
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what happened to the sofa protection? i thought they were tried in military tribunals and then let off the hook slowly as attention waines.
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Contrary to what you might read in hanchongryun pamphlets, that SOFA provision only applies to crimes commited while on duty. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: |
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No, I agree, I think that the punishment should reflect the effect the crime has on the victim. If you stick me up while working at 7-11 I will be shaken up and need to smoke a J and have a whickey but its unlikely that I will be destroyed emotionally.
Rape and molestation victims are usually destroyed, their very soul ripped apart (if you believe in that sort of thing). Victims of sexual abuse are often unable to have normal relations with others, they often suffer post tramatic stress disorder (the condition returning vets suffer from), they (at least in the cause of kid victims) often abuse others as a way of coping.
Rape is a weapon of unimaginable power and ferocity. Why do you think it is one of the most common tools of war? |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| As for prison I am a firm believer in rehabilitation. The problem is that most sexual based offenses are not one time incidents. Almost all sex offenders are repeat offenders, thus locking them up in prison is the only way to contain the problem. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I've never been affected by it, nor any of my family members, so I don't really know about how people are affected by rape etc. I will certainly take your word for it.
I'm wondering, tho, how does a pervert get 'rehabilitated'? How do you change what turns a guy on? |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| I could list at least 7 women in my life. I'm sure if you asked one of your girlfriends (platonic or otherwise) or family members you would be shocked to learn how often people are affected by it and how often people keep it secret. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Octavius Hite
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they (at least in the cause of kid victims) often abuse others as a way of coping.
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You're wrong on two counts here. Firstly it's not 'often' it's 'sometimes' and secondly it's not believed to be a coping strategy.
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| As for prison I am a firm believer in rehabilitation. The problem is that most sexual based offenses are not one time incidents. Almost all sex offenders are repeat offenders, thus locking them up in prison is the only way to contain the problem. |
This is quite true. Sex offenders are notoriously difficult to rehabilitate. As a result the rate of recidivism with them is extremely high. It is questionable if they ever stop posing a threat to society. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| You are out of line, Butterfly. That kind of personalized personal attack is unacceptable. |
He basically called me a rapist, and I'M out of line? |
He asked you if you were a rapist. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I can't remember the names of posters so address all points I can remember collectively.
| Doutdes wrote: |
| No, it's not rape. Consent does not mean verbal consent. |
Then how is it defined? = Grey area, thus the endless papers, debates and articles on the net on definitions of rape. My example is not rape in my view either, but it could be, actually. Because she said no. She said no. Stroking a man's back means she is consenting to sex? Be careful what feminist quarters you say that in, you'll run the risk of getting called a rapist.
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| If this is your grey area, it's pretty sad example. There isn't much grey about it. |
If you say that consent does not mean verbal consent, that a woman can give her consent without saying yes, and she can deny consent without saying no. Then this is exactly the grey area I'm talking about - people misunderstand each other, men and women misunderstand each other.
With regard to the 11 examples, they all look like very serious crimes to me and again, depend further on the circumstances (honestly, as if you were going to catch me out like that - as if to elecit some misogynistic tyrade from me  ), whatever you regard the maximum sentence to be. My original premise to those were, 'a woman changes her mind and says no after contact (meaning copulation) has been made.' If she changes her mind and says no, then it's rape. However, you might have the case of [1] a married couple for five years, who are making love just as they always do, and she for whatever reason says no, just as he's is climaxing, he withdraws 5-10 seconds later. That's rape, because she said no. Or, you have [2] a woman who already feels coerced into sex on a spring break weekend in which lots of alcohol has been involved, she gives in to it due to peer pressure, and allows intercourse however says no as soon as contact is made. He refuses to stop and keeps going, pinning her down until he has finished.
Both rape. Life sentences for both?
My only point is that rape, it's definitions and it's level of severity, is not black and white. Life, is not black and white. And you lot know it. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I, too, am a rehabilitation guy, since sending people into a prison is hardly a way to make people 'better'--- 'hanging out with the wrong crowd'.
But in this case the entire issue must be taken into account to understand the 40 years. This man was a military man, trained to obey orders and make important decisions. The training evidently did little good. On top of that is that you have someone who is literally trained to kill. Rather than exercizing restraint he chose to take a highly suspect action, which had to occur to him in the process of committing the act, and if it DIDN'T occur to him, then that is even more reason to lock him up. If a man is willing and capable to do this to a highly intoxicated woman than his morals, ethics, and behaviours must be considered extremely suspect.
I would also point out the location of the crime... it's not like sex is a hard thing to come by there. If you have to resort to this kind of behaviour to get laid, there is definitely something wrong with you, and you should be viewed as likely to reoffend. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
I would also point out the location of the crime... it's not like sex is a hard thing to come by there. If you have to resort to this kind of behaviour to get laid, there is definitely something wrong with you, and you should be viewed as likely to reoffend. |
Not according to Sheik Hilali
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
cbc |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
I would also point out the location of the crime... it's not like sex is a hard thing to come by there. If you have to resort to this kind of behaviour to get laid, there is definitely something wrong with you, and you should be viewed as likely to reoffend. |
Not according to Sheik Hilali
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
cbc |
Sadly unsurprising views from conservative muslim gobshyte clerics, exacerbated in my view that in this case he feels compelled to comment I suspect only because the recent trail where the rapists were muslims. In other cases of course, it would simply be a consequence of filthy western values, but when muslims are involved, the woman must be in some way to blame. This was one of the most despicable rapes I have ever heard of, and he is a fucking animal for trying to make any allowance for it.
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| While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years". |
Unbelievable. |
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