|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
I would also add, isn't it funny -- how Saudi Arabia, America's biggest ally, is also one of the countries treated as "sancrosanct" by the American government. As so many astute commentators have said, by Bush's own standards, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia and not be concerned with Iraq or least of all, Iran. |
Saudi is the epicenter of this garbage. Those backwards fools were (as said in Syriana) cutting off each others heads 100 years ago and will return to doing so when the oil runs out. The ideological junk that Saudis flood mosques all over the world with is a major source of our problems. But, we shouldn't invade, we should keep them, and their racist ideas out. If they egg us with violence on even then, we will destroy their way of life as we did the nazis. Until then, non-violence and thoughtful immigration should keep us safe.
Finally, dd, we agree on something. Saudi, not Iraq or Iran, is the real problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
I would also add, isn't it funny -- how Saudi Arabia, America's biggest ally, is also one of the countries treated as "sancrosanct" by the American government. As so many astute commentators have said, by Bush's own standards, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia and not be concerned with Iraq or least of all, Iran. |
Saudi is the epicenter of this garbage. Those backwards fools were (as said in Syriana) cutting off each others heads 100 years ago and will return to doing so when the oil runs out. The ideological junk that Saudis flood mosques all over the world with is a major source of our problems. But, we shouldn't invade, we should keep them, and their racist ideas out. If they egg us with violence on even then, we will destroy their way of life as we did the nazis. Until then, non-violence and thoughtful immigration should keep us safe.
Finally, dd, we agree on something. Saudi, not Iraq or Iran, is the real problem. |
Actually you are part right. Iraq wasnt the problem because as bad as Saddam was he did keep down the religious nutcases. The problem is Iran and Saudi. Equally so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If a German moves to Canada and starts spouting crap about the Jews, well, send that pig back to Germany. |
I have to disagree with this. If the German becomes a Canadian citizen, he shouldn't be forced back to Germany for something he did in Canada. Citizenship is an either/or proposition.
Canada does have hate laws. I don't support them personally, but as long as they're on the books, that's how you deal with a Canadian citizen spouting racist garbage. Or, if you don't like the legal route, he can be harrassed by the local chapter of Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice or whatever they're called. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If a German moves to Canada and starts spouting crap about the Jews, well, send that pig back to Germany. |
I have to disagree with this. If the German becomes a Canadian citizen, he shouldn't be forced back to Germany for something he did in Canada. Citizenship is an either/or proposition.
Canada does have hate laws. I don't support them personally, but as long as their on the books, that's how you deal with a German spouting racist garbage. Or, if you don't like the legal route, he can be harrassed by the local chapter of Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice or whatever they're called. |
I would make a distinction between people who take citizenship and people who were born in the nation. I don't support birthright citizenship either. Your parents must be Canadian, in my mind. But I agree that 1) if you were born in Canada and 2) your parents were born in Canada then we cannot deport you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If a German moves to Canada and starts spouting crap about the Jews, well, send that pig back to Germany. |
I have to disagree with this. If the German becomes a Canadian citizen, he shouldn't be forced back to Germany for something he did in Canada. Citizenship is an either/or proposition.
Canada does have hate laws. I don't support them personally, but as long as their on the books, that's how you deal with a German spouting racist garbage. Or, if you don't like the legal route, he can be harrassed by the local chapter of Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice or whatever they're called. |
I would make a distinction between people who take citizenship and people who were born in the nation. I don't support birthright citizenship either. Your parents must be Canadian, in my mind. But I agree that 1) if you were born in Canada and 2) your parents were born in Canada then we cannot deport you. |
I'm not a legal expert, but I think what you are proposing would entail a re-definition of citizenship as the concept is applied in Canada. And I don't think the current definition is just something cooked up by liberal multiculturalists in the 1970s. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes, I understand that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If a German moves to Canada and starts spouting crap about the Jews, well, send that pig back to Germany. |
I have to disagree with this. If the German becomes a Canadian citizen, he shouldn't be forced back to Germany for something he did in Canada. Citizenship is an either/or proposition.
Canada does have hate laws. I don't support them personally, but as long |
He didnt say "becomes a citizen" just comes. As a tourist or a landed immigrant even. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BJWD wrote:
| Quote: |
| I do not accept that they are entitled to immigrate and I do not accept that citizenship isn't revocable and people cannot be sent back to their homelands. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Under certain conditions... It is true, that is my opinion. But if you care to tell my why I shouldn't think that, I'm not married to it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| Under certain conditions... It is true, that is my opinion. But if you care to tell my why I shouldn't think that, I'm not married to it. |
No, that's a respectable position, if, as you suggest, it's applied accross the board. I'm just wondering how far you would take it. I mean, why stop at hate-mongering? Why not apply it to all crimes?
| Quote: |
| I would make a distinction between people who take citizenship and people who were born in the nation. I don't support birthright citizenship either. Your parents must be Canadian, in my mind. But I agree that 1) if you were born in Canada and 2) your parents were born in Canada then we cannot deport you. |
So, a Canadian moves to the states, marries another Canadian, and they have a son who is an American citizen. If that son grows up and starts mugging old ladies in the street, would you want him shipped to Canada? I could see this creating a LOT of headaches, in the realm of international relations.
Furthermore, the USA doesn't have "hate speech" laws, as far as I know. So in that country, your proposal would basically amount to deporting people who haven't broken any laws, but were just "guilty" of expressing outrageous opinions. Even in Canada, it isn't as if every expression of(let's say) anti-homosexual opinions qualifies as criminal hate speech, as any visit to a right-wing message board will show.
| Quote: |
Gays and lesbians should be prevented from procreating at all. These freaks should have to get their act cleaned up before giving birth. Gays and lesbians giving birth or adopting is like a death sentence to the child. Should be prevented.
|
http://tinyurl.com/2m6w99 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know if I would apply it to all crimes... Maybe, maybe not. I would certainly apply it to incitement to murder, or out and out racist hate-speech. I think that there are some base values that we have to accept as a condition of taking citizenship in a foreign land. In Canada, this would mean not being a racist thug, at the very minimum.
But yeah, you are right. It isn't cut and dry at all. But I feel confident that a coherent policy could be worked out. And I think it would be one that the vast majority of Canadians would agree with. If you come here and slap our society in the face, we send you home. Citizenship or not. But if they are born here, it gets much more difficult to do. The problem is that in England the really crazy ones are born in the UK and "of Pakistani descent". Not Indian, Brazilian or Korean. Pakistani. How do we deal with that? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here is a very interesting article that relates somewhat to this thread. Harry Bernstein is being published for the first time, at 96 years old, and his book talks about the divide between Christians and Jews in England. I'm sure there are a lot of parallels between British muslim and mainstream society today.
Divided Loyalties
| Quote: |
Harry Bernstein grew up in a Lancashire street with Jews on one side and Christians on the other. Now, at the age of 96, he has written a memoir recalling the tensions that the split created. Ed Pilkington reports
|
| Quote: |
| The wall that ran down East Street was religion: Jews lived in one row of houses, Christians in the other. Bernstein lived on the Jewish side, in a family that like most there had fled the pogroms in Poland and Russia. He has written a memoir of his childhood growing up on the street, The Invisible Wall, in which he recalls the personal tragedies that such segregation brings |
| Quote: |
His memories certainly come very much alive in the book. His side of the street was a miniature ghetto, though it lacked the brutality of the fully formed versions of continental Europe. Sometimes the tenants at the Christian sweet shop on the other side would mutter "bloody little Jews" when he walked in, and when he started going to school he was in perpetual fear of being ganged up on by older lads with their war cry: "Who killed Jesus?"
But for the most part the hostility was uttered sotto voce - and it cut both ways. "We were taught that when we passed a church we were to spit at it. There was as much bigotry on the Jewish side as Christian, maybe more." The Jews had a word to describe the rougher Christian elements - betsemas - the etymology of which Bernstein has never managed to divine.
Bernstein can only speak for one side of the street because his contact with the other was so limited. He says that the prevailing feeling within his family was that the Christians were somehow beneath them. While they worked in the mills, the Jewish men were tailors; while the Christians wore iron-shod clogs, the Jews aspired to leather shoes.
|
I chuckled at this:
| Quote: |
| He no longer has a Lancashire accent; when he arrived in Chicago he was put in an English class for foreigners - it took him three days to convince his teachers that he already spoke the language. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jewish brits never launched suicide attacks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| jewish brits never launched suicide attacks. |
That's not the point. There are people on this forum talking about how it's not possible for the muslim community to co-exist with mainstream British society. They also talk as if muslims were a unique problem. But much of what they point to, we've been through before. Jews are well assimilated into British society now, but it didn't happen immediately. And don't forget, only a handful of muslims have ever launched suicide attacks in the UK.
Anyway, if you read the article linked in the OP, you'll see that jews were associated with political violence in the early 20th century. And it wasn't the end of the world.
Anyway, I'm running out of time to say anymore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| and my point was you're talking apples and oranges. every group is different and it really is silly to compare them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
