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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
postfundie:
Just what is International Law? Can it be enforced? Not unless the big dogs decide to intervene. Then the do it to their own benefit and desires - for example the US and Israel.
Did it work in Cambodia? No
Did it work in Viet Nam? No
Will it work in the Holy land? No
Did is work in Kosovo? Yes, and only because the Americans intervened and bombed the Chinese Embassy.
Did it work when Iran occupied the US Embassy? No.
Did it work in Korea in 1950? Sort of. The Russians boycotted the UN session and we have a war that it stil going on.
Come off it. International law is only what the big powers want it to be. |
You're omitting:
1. Cyprus
2. Sierra Leone
3. Rwanda
4. serbia/bosnia
5. Charles Taylor/Liberia
6. East Timor
Even pinochet was stripped of his immunity from prosecution shortly before he died. While I am fully aware that was a domestic issue, it was a Spanish judge who got the ball rolling.
International law is young, but it is developing and gaining more of a tooth as time goes on. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Cyprus - Still there! The big dogs weren't interested.
Sierra Leone - who knows? Its another Muslim v anyone debacle.
Rwanda - Ah yes! Khofi Annans triumph - 600,000 deaths an some big dogs involved.
Serbia / Bosnia. Where is that Serb general? Europe backed the wrong side on that one. Milosovich was so darn inconsiderate he died before their kangaroo court was finished. Confirmed to the US that they should stay out of th ICC.
Liberia the big dog, US growled.
East Timor - the jury is out, but without the US quietly tellinb Indonesia to get gone they'd still be there.
Pinochet - laws should not be changed ex post facto. |
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cerulean808
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Postfundie
| Quote: |
| yeah and that's a big FAT problem....Another bigger and fatter problem is that people can't see this in the Koran |
Why is it a bigger problem?
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| ...oh yeah and by the way which has more references to hell and fire for the non believers? The New Testament or the Koran....??? (have you read both..I have ...and just in case you may be tempted to think the N.T. and Koran are just the same thing...which one mentions love as an attribute of God and which one does not????) |
No I haven't read the Koran. I grew up Baptist so it's the Bible I'm more familiar with. But I'm confident the Koran does claim exclusive possession of the Truth etc, given the way some adherents talk and behave. Just like the Bible.
O.k there are differences in details. So what? The Bible only repeats 100 times unbelievers go to hell, the Koran more than that. So the Koran is worse! Yeah right. The Koran says unbelievers go to hell, the Bible says unbelievers go to hell but God loves them! So the Bible is better. Yeah right.
As to the groundless accusation that Western supporters of Palastine are silent about mistreatment of them by other Arab groups, well unlike the Israeli colonisation project there aren't a whole lot of right wing Americans trying to rationalise that treatment as a pious religious act to please God and fulfill His Will. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Pinochet - laws should not be changed ex post facto. |
So are you against Nuremburg, too? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a Jew, I was all for Nuremberg.
Pinochet, whatever his faults, did a good job in Chile. He gave up power voluntarily. Something that Mao, Stalin, Castro and the toxic dwarf in NK will never do.
Giving up power voluntarily saves war, revolution and more bloodshed. Besides Allende got what he deserved. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| O.k there are differences in details. So what? The Bible only repeats 100 times unbelievers go to hell, the Koran more than that. So the Koran is worse! Yeah right. The Koran says unbelievers go to hell, the Bible says unbelievers go to hell but God loves them! So the Bible is better. Yeah right. |
wow you admit that you've not read the Koran then you go on to say that there are differences in DETAILS...stop speaking from ignorance and read the damn book...It amazes me that you grew up baptist but you can't see that big of a difference between the books...hmm muslims might be offended by that..Also since you were in baptist land you can see the harm that having the fear of hell hanging over people's head can cause in real life... Imagine if America were full of Baptists Yikes!!...yeah like 99%..wouldn't that be a fun place?...now look at the Middle East and what do you see...People oppressing other people with stupid religious laws....the only real way they are gonna get around this is if religious law is marginalized.. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Pinochet, whatever his faults, did a good job in Chile |
Dude you can't write stuff like this and expect people to take you seriously...I hate Mao and Castro and Stalin to the max(good 80's term) but I'd never excuse Pinochet and his soccer stadium of torture...It wasn't necessary...besides a lot of the economic progress took off after Pinoche left office and was a result of the Chicago boys ideas...not Pinochet the asshole |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Pinochet out a stop to Allende's Marxist takeover. Allende got about 36% of the vote and only had a minority in Parliament. He was being balked at every turn and started to do an end run and to rule by fiat. There were street riots, the poor were taking over private property and to cap it all off he was trying to take over the copper mines without paying Kennecot.
A coup was organised and most likely advised by the CIA. It worked.
The problem then arose of what to do with a soccer stadium full of dissenters. People were murdered and disappeard it was a gross miscarriage that it was done. The best guesses are that Pinochet lost control of his own military and didn't do enough to get it back - basically he condoned some of the excesses.
Afterwards like many dictators he started to get greedy.
He was also smart enough to get the right kind of economic advisors in and in a few years Chile had the best economy if Latin America. He ruled and then voluntarily gave up power which is more than any of the other Latin American dcitators did. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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The problem then arose of what to do with a soccer stadium full of dissenters. People were murdered and disappeard it was a gross miscarriage that it was done. The best guesses are that Pinochet lost control of his own military and didn't do enough to get it back - basically he condoned some of the excesses.
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dude I'm NO fan of Allende but that doesn't excuse Pinochet...He should have been brought before an International tribunal...Just because you stop the commies doesn't give you the right to torture 30,000 people and dump others in the ocean |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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The ICC is fatally flawed. The three main reasons are:
1. No right to silence and full presumption of innocence
2. It allows heresay evidence
3. There are nor provisions fro juries.
That is why the US has not signed on, their consitution guarantees jury trials and it would be illegal for an American to be tried by it.
After the Milosovich debacle I have no faith in it. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
He gave up power voluntarily. Something that Mao, Stalin, Castro and the toxic dwarf in NK will never do.
Giving up power voluntarily saves war, revolution and more bloodshed. Besides Allende got what he deserved. |
Actually it is only because The United States strongly encouraged him to do so. |
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cerulean808
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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postfundie
| Quote: |
| wow you admit that you've not read the Koran then you go on to say that there are differences in DETAILS... |
Yeah the details you put foward in your previous post for a start. Again you want to say that if the bible says 100 times unbelievers go to hell while the Koran says so more then the bible must be better? Yeah right.
| Quote: |
| stop speaking from ignorance and read the damn book... |
I've got finite time, there's plenty of other good reading material to occupy me other than religious texts.
In a nut shell what I'm saying is a fanatic is a fanatic whatever they're pushing right?
Nothing ignorant about that. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| That is why the US has not signed on, their consitution guarantees jury trials and it would be illegal for an American to be tried by it. |
You are either very, very naive or just plainly "thought" challenged.
The Rome Statue has the most exhaustive list of guarantees and checks and balances possible, providing for the most balanced of criminal proceedings. Further, the court only has jurisdiction of 4 areas (genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes of aggression - I think) and only will prosecute when the national gov't involved, has neither the ability nor wish to proceed with prosecution.
Clinton in fact recommended U.S. participation, Bush revoked it and it is precisely in line with the present administrations own, "my way, the American way, or the highway approach" to foreign affairs. I disagree with this and it is a big example of how the U.S. approach to diplomacy and an international "peace" agenda is completely bullocks and shows America is in no way committed to international justice but only "control" of justice. America wants to be free to commit crimes when it feels fit and free to cry foul when it feels fit. Cake and it too, cumrudgendry.....
Just to add:
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| According to David Scheffer, who led the US delegation to the Rome Conference (and who voted against adoption of the treaty), �when we were negotiating the Rome treaty, we always kept very close tabs on, �Does this meet U.S. constitutional tests, the formation of this court and the due process rights that are accorded defendants?� And we were very confident at the end of Rome that those due process rights, in fact, are protected, and that this treaty does meet a constitutional test |
DD |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Why shouldn't the Israelis annex it. It is the promised land that God gave to Abraham.
What is illegal abou the occupation? International law is a figment of the imagination. |
So is God (won't you go to hell if you don't spell it "G-d"?) giving land to Abraham.
If there was a God, He would certainly drive you Jews and Muslims alike from the Western world back into your sandpit and let you play out your violent fantasies until you were all gone and the rest of us could live in peace. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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DDuh!
Clinton did recommend signing on. He was also very candid is saying that the Senate would not approve of it. Senate approval is necessary for treaties.
Bush didn't even bother to submit it to the Senate when he took power.
If you are so darned intelligent tell me where the set-up of the IPC allows jury trials? The IPC is based primarily on European law not on the far superior Anglo/American system.
the key words in you own statement are:
"and only will prosecute when the national gov't involved, has neither the ability nor wish to proceed with prosecution."
The ability to proceed is fair, but the wish to proceed is also necessary. America is the 500 pound gorilla of the world. What does a 500 pound gorilla do?
Whatever he wants. |
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