Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Gatsby]

I agree with Dawn that one of the problems with the medical establishment is their acceptance of what is "normal." Just look at the NIH website for the prevalence of common disorders. Most people in the U.S. have at least one or more preventable ailments, not the least of which is obesity.

This leads to the suspicion that if sickness is so common, then perhaps something common in our diet is causing it. Some people seize on things like hormones and pesticides as the likely culprit. Maybe they are a problem, maybe they aren't such a big problem. This is an empirical question that must be answered by research, not emotions.

Some hormones may be a problem, while others aren't. Some might not even be in food. The use of plastics throughout our environment may be introducing chemicals resembling human sex hormones into our bodies that could be causing problems, but it may be a few years before the research studies are complete on that.

Just because something is labeled a pesticide doesn't mean they are all equally bad. The old pesticides worked by interfering with neurotransmitters in insects, and also had some effect in humans. Studies have found that combining extremely small amounts of more than one type of neurotransmitter pesticides can have a synergistic effect, producing much more damage in humans than would be expected from the sum of their parts.

But neurotransmitter hormones have been on the way out for years. Many pesticides now work by interfering with hormones that block specific types of growth within insects, such as the growth of chitin used to make their shells, and which have no effect on mammals. So some pesticides are harmless to humans, though they may have incidental harmful effects on other forms of life. And some genetically modified foods use a similar mechanism to produce hormone-type pesticides that affect insects but not humans. Often this is done by taking a gene from another variety or species that does produce this natural pesticides.

Did you know that plants produce natural pesticides? That's how they evolved to survive from insects in the first place. Eat some raw vegetarian products and you are going to be eating their natural pesticides. I believe I recall reading that alfalfa sprouts make these.

You want a world that uses less pesticides? Fine, you need a world with fewer humans. As long as the world's population continues to explode, industry will continue to seek ways to produce more food more cheaply.

My feeling is that if we want to explain the proliferation of all to common forms of illness, we need to look at common components of the diet. That's one reason I suspect wheat is a major problem.

Refined sugar is obviously a problem, too. OK, people started avoiding sugar and what happened? The food companies started using more corn syrup in the 1980s. (Americans ate more than twice as much high-fructose corn syrup per person in 2004 as we did in 1980." -- UPI) And what happened then? Obesity exploded. How do farmers fatten up cattle? They feed them corn, which it happens also increases the amount of inflammatory Omega 6s in beef fat than when they are grass fed.

The corn does a superior job of triggering the body to produce elevated levels of insulin, which then tells the body to convert the high levels of blood sugar into glucogen in the liver, which is eventually stored in the body as fat. That's why corn products make you fat. And when you are fat, you are more likely to get diabetes.

Take a look at Fat Land: How Americans Became the Fattest People in the World, by Greg Critser.

Did you know that people in Mexico eat lots of corn, but Americans now eat far more, in all its various forms?

Feed kids lots of high fructose corn syrup in soda and candy and prepared foods and they are going to look like fattened cattle. You aren't what you eat; sorry, it's not that simple. Eating cattle doesn't make you look like cattle. But eating vegetarian corn and corn syrup sure will.

As to the dangers of the increasingly common soy isolates in food, simply Google "soy dangers." Then try "soy dangers thyroid" and "soy dangers hormones" and "soy dangers allergies," etc.

I am all for healthy eating. People are getting sick, in body and mind, from our horrible Western diets. A healthy, natural, more unprocessed diet would be great. But it saddens me to see people in stores who buy stuff, including soy milk or vegetarian soy burgers, just because some food company has marketed them as health food.

And there are alternative doctors who crave fame who exploit this emotional response, too.

Here is an interesting example for you vegetarian women out there that I read a while back. Ever hear of Dr. Christiane Northrup MD?

http://users.rcn.com/cabbidge/Index.html

It turns out that at least for some women, vegetarian beta carotene is not a complete substitute for fish based vitamin A, as had long been believed.

The problem is greatest in women who are vegetarians who eat lots of "goitrogens," foods that suppress the production of thyroid hormone, in their diets. As the women who wrote this points out, goitrogens are "broccoli, kale, millet, and most notably soy." Throid hormone is necessary to convert the beta carotene, which is a precursor of vitamin A, into vitamin A. So vegetarians can wind up with low thyroid levels and vitamin A deficiencies.

The author, Mary L. Cupp, who wound up getting a hysterectomy before she discovered the true problem, writes:

"In one study, women consuming soy isoflavones developed disruptions of the menstrual cycle for up to three months after the soy was discontinued. Closer to home, one of my girlfriends told me that she had developed menstrual problems when she started eating a lot of tofu."

There are excellent doctors writing about alternative health approaches. But they don't generally have television shows with audiences applauding their egos. They do, however, back up their claims with solid research and professional experience.

To judge health claims, you need to take the time and effort to educate yourself, and not just judge new ideas by emotional prejudices.

These issues affect you, adults, your children, and even your pets. I recently had a very much loved cat die from a hyperactive thyroid. I did some research and found that this disorder has been on the rise in the last 10 or 20 years. It turns out that pet food companies started putting soy in dry and canned pet food during this period. I'm not the only one who is suspicious that there is a connection. But there is no proof at this time.

However, it peeves me that a pet food maker called Pet Promise came out with a "natural" cat food endorsed by Dr. Andrew Weil blaming "animal byproducts and slaughterhouse scraps" for the ill-effects of pet foods and the death of his cat.

Cats are carnivores. Ever see a cat eat a bird or mouse? There's not much left but the squeal. I'm not saying slaughterhouse byproducts are good. But I don't think soy flour, the fourth ingredient in this cat food, is the answer.

One theory about autism I have heard about from Dr. James Braly is that it is caused by candidiasis resulting from disorders digesting wheat. In this program, they eliminated the wheat and sugar from the children's diets, and treated the candidiasis, and the children improved dramatically. But there most likely are multiple causes of this disorder, as with many such ailments.

In short, if you are healthier on a vegetarian diet, then perhaps it is right for you. But don't be too dogmatic, especially if you get sick.

Following a vegetarian diet is certainly a fine spiritual approach to life. I love animals. The world will certainly be a much better place with better karma when we greatly reduce or eliminate killing animals for food, especially in factory farm settings. But being sick, and irritable and even full of hate, as some vegetarians I have known are, is not spiritual, either.

Spirituality comes from the way you live and the way you transform your consciousness to higher, transcendent levels. When you are angry, depressed, tired, anxious, this pulls your consciousness down. When you quiet your mind, you can learn to deliberately move the center of your consciousness to more abstract levels that gradually enable you to transcend the ordinary perception of space and time. Simply following a vegetarian diet, while it may be helpful, will not produce this transformation, alone, and a vegetarian diet is not essential to this process.

Not to put to fine a point on it, Hitler was a vegetarian.

The Dalia Lama is not.

[Bramble]

[Bramble]

[Bramble]

I didn't have time to get through that lengthy Northrup article, but it's really, utterly irrelevant here. From what I read, the author was looking for a quick fix for her health problems, and she didn't find one. That's unfortunate, but IMO there really are no quick fixes in life. I don't live the healthiest lifestyle either and I could very well get sick one of these years. If and when I do, I'll have only myself to blame. You persist in writing as if a vegan diet has to be a miracle cure for all ills known to humanity, or else we can just dismiss it. That's asinine. No one ever denied that people can destroy their bodies without using animal products, but - as I said before - it's not mandatory.

I also don't appreciate your condescending admonition to "educate (my)self"; I've done that and will continue to do so. But I'll rely on trustworthy sources, thanks, and not on the first few links to pop up on a Google search. You think that Northrup article constitutes reliable, peer-reviewed research and isn't driven by emotion??? Give me a break. I'm neither a macrobiotic person nor a follower of Northrup, but the author of that article needs to grow up and take responsibility for her own poor choices.

I also saw the name Weston Price mentioned. Some people may be interested in hearing the perspective of Dr. Colin T. Campbell, a legitimate authority on nutrition:

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/campbell_china_response.htm

[Dawn]

[Gatsby]

Bramble: I apologize if my comments led you to believe I was writing to you, personally.

There are many others who have commented in this forum, and I was responding to their remarks, to the comments I have heard from many acquaintances over the years, as well as speaking generally.

I was attempting to provide a little balance to the anti-vegetarian remarks, as well as those who advocate vegan diets for everyone. My problem is not with a healthy vegetarian diet. But I am afraid some people assume that because they are not eating meat products, they are eating healthy.

It is possible to be on a vegetarian diet and eat lots of unhealthy stuff, like cake and ice cream. I talked to a woman with cancer who went on a vegetarian diet as part of a regimen she believed would help her beat the cancer. Sounded good. But she was eating ice cream and cookies. It didn't work.

I talked to a man who was a strict vegetarian, a Seventh Day Adventist. He found out during a visit to his doctor that his blood pressure was skyrocketing, as was his cholesterol levels. He reexamined his diet, and realized that those plates of tater tots and other hydrogenated sources of transfatty acids might be to blame. He eliminated them, and his health improved dramatically.

Clearly, the Western diet today is a health disaster. We cannot rely on doctors to undo the damage. Most doctors do not take the time to educate patients about diet, a subject most were never educated about in medical school. The only way around this is to educate ourselves as consumers about health and diet. It is an ongoing process for all of us.

If I were giving general advice, it would include that everyone should try eliminating meat from their diet for a week or two periodically. Give your body a break, even if you cannot adhere to this diet permanently. But also experiment with temporarily avoiding other food groups, including wheat, and nightshades such as tomatoes, potatoes, and sweet and hot peppers. Go on a low carb, grain free, sugar free diet for a while and see what happens. Find out what works for you.

However, to specifically address your comments, Bramble, the Northrup article is, I believe, quite relevant. It addresses the potential consequences of a vegetarian diet high in foods like soy and brocolli, and devoid of animal-derived vitamin A. This woman could have died of a hemorrhage. As it is, she will never have children.

And to Dawn, I confess I have not read any biographies of Hitler lately, so I may be in error. My understanding is that Hitler ate lots of pastry and sweets as part of his vegetarian diet. This is not healthy for some if not most people. It can result in hypolglycemia and candidiasis, both of which can affect mood. It can also be problem if you develop a wheat sensitivity. This is not a healthy type of vegetarianism, which is part of my point. If he ate meat oaccasionally, this would not make much difference here. Just because a person calls himself a vegetarian does not mean his diet is healthy.

[Bramble]

[Bramble]

[Bramble]

[Omkara]

Another point that seems to slip people's attention is what happens psychologically to a person who moves to a vegetarian diet for the practice of non-violence. That person's awareness becomes more acute, more aware of suffering. By taking a dietary move to be non-violent, the soul becomes more aware, more concious, more compassionate.

But, by taking a step to minimize our dietary impact on the environment, we show respect for the environment and consequently we show respect for all beings who depend on it. Anone who denies that our dietary behaviors impact our environment has a mal-formed understanding. To claim that we are "too small" and are therefore "arrogant" for thinking that we have a direct and profound impact on our environement is not thinking clearly.

Any sustained behavior by such a highly populated species will impact a finite system. In fifty years, the scientists tell us, the fish population of the ocean will fall below the critical threshold and will not be able to sustain our voracious, blind and unconcious appetite. I don't want to list the other issues of pollution, deforestation, etc.

Of course a person is better off weighing out the details of his or her diet individually. But at least that person is eating consciously. Such people are not the problem. It is the collective and blind appetite which is causing problems.

[Rteacher]

Yeah, there are many factors to consider. A vegan or vegetarian diet may - or may not - be healthier for a particular human being. I don't think that the evidence is conclusive either way ...

There is considerably more evidence that it is healthier for the environment (and certainly for the animals that are killed - around 10 billion a year in the U.S. alone, counting chickens...)

I see nothing wrong with the OP's introduction of the topic on this thread - it's a good way to create some interest. And, it's not obviously incorrect nor necessarily unfair to make the point that Hitler was more-or-less a vegetarian.

It seems that "Bramble" - apparently the current incarnation of "red dog" - is still kind of snappish ...

[Omkara]

Yes, that Hitler was a vegetarian is an interesting point. I wonder what his reasons were?

[Bramble]

[Rteacher]

The "Off-Topic" forum is generally not the place for "serious" discussions - try "Current Events" (and even there you'll find a lot of humor...)

UFOs and JFK assassination and creationist theories have been "debunked" also, but they may still be true.

I don't buy everything that comes out of the PETA/radical vegan propaganda mill - including their view of milk and historical revisionism regarding Hitler and other prominent Nazis ...

A more balenced view is summarized in this statement from the Wikipedia article on Hitler:

Most of Hitler's biographers have characterized him as a vegetarian who abstained from eating meat, beginning in the early 1930s until his death (although his actual dietary habits appear inconsistent and are sometimes hotly disputed). There are reports of him disgusting his guests by giving them graphic accounts of the slaughter of animals in an effort to make them shun meat. A fear of cancer (which his mother died from) is the most widely cited reason, though many authors also assert Hitler had a profound and deep love of animals. He did consume dairy products and eggs, however. Martin Bormann had a large greenhouse constructed for him close to the Berghof (near Berchtesgaden) in order to ensure a steady supply of fresh fruits and vegetables for Hitler throughout the war...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Health

A more comprehensive essay on it appears elsewhere in Wikipedia, detailing evidence for both sides of the issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_of_Adolf_Hitler

It significantly concludes by noting that Hitler evidently perceived of himself as a vegetarian (although radical vegans challenge that there's no "tape recording" of his statement, so ... )