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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
Seems to me it all comes back to a burqua being representative of Islam and that just equals bad to you.
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Islam to me does equal bad, yes. The central ideas that drive islam as an idea are fundamentally repulsive, backwards and regressive. I'm honest about that. I am quite familiar with islam, islamic texts and history. I see nothing of value in the whole project. Individual muslims are victims of one of the greatest swindles of all time (the other major religions being the others). |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| YES. We don't tolerate that which is intolerable. That, is leading by example. Saying that some things are wrong always. Being little multicult wimps isn't leading by example. It is an invitation to impose yourself on us. |
Hey, you know I don't like religion - and I like Islam least of all. At the same time though, anyone who knows anything about Islam will know that directly opposing it will just make it stronger - Islamic memes are all set up for a fight to the death. Instead, if we want to weaken Islam in Western societies we have to provide every opportunity for muslims to integrate. It's a long process, but we do have to take a long term view of this. Doing the opposite - that is, creating an explicit narrative that characterises muslims as the enemy - will serve to radicalise a great number of otherwise moderate muslims and their children. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Individual muslims aren't the enemy. That isn't what I'm saying. My position is that islam has to be criticized at every opportunity. As Christianity was, and is now. It just isn't productive for us to 'tolerate' them into assimilation. It will not work. Look at those states in Eurpoe that have tried this, GAG, they are having the biggest problems with assimilation.
But, we are never going to agree on this. And we don't have to. I will talk smack about that 'religion' until the day I die. All people who have imaginary friends are inherently dangerous, and I'm not going to shutup about this one just because some people have a touch of the white guilt.
But I do wonder, in your opinion, to what extent should we assimilate to them? Where does our culture change to make them feel more comfortable? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Individual muslims aren't the enemy. That isn't what I'm saying. My position is that islam has to be criticized at every opportunity. As Christianity was, and is now. It just isn't productive for us to 'tolerate' them into assimilation. It will not work. Look at those states in Eurpoe that have tried this, GAG, they are having the biggest problems with assimilation.
But, we are never going to agree on this. And we don't have to. I will talk smack about that 'religion' until the day I die. All people who have imaginary friends are inherently dangerous, and I'm not going to shutup about this one just because some people have a touch of the white guilt. |
Que? It's not about 'white guilt' or 'multicult' or whatever rightwing buzzwords you've latched on to; it's more about understanding about how ideas work. Islam (like Christianity) is a terrible idea for people to follow - but it's protected from external criticism by a relatively sophisticated logical system. Christianity, remember, wasn't destroyed in the West by muslim cristicisms; so too, Islam is immune to Christian and secular attacks. Instead, the hope is for a modernised and increasingly secular muslim elite who will delegitimise Islamist extremism. However. casting ALL muslims as the enemy will make all muslims the enemy.
| BJWD wrote: |
| But I do wonder, in your opinion, to what extent should we assimilate to them? Where does our culture change to make them feel more comfortable? |
In New Zealand? Obey New Zealand law and no niqab in banks or other situations where the identity of the person must be known. Otherwise, individual organisations - lifeguard associations, for example, - can decide on their own rules. Simple. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| That is a nice try to cherry-pick and criticize me due to the chip on your shoulder to me, but once again highlights your total inability to build a sense of proportion. You do not have a sense of proportion. |
Who me? I have no chip on any of my shoulders. Just because I can't make mountains out of mole hills like you doesn't mean I don't have proportion.
| Quote: |
| It just isn't productive for us to 'tolerate' them into assimilation. It will not work. Look at those states in Eurpoe that have tried this, GAG, they are having the biggest problems with assimilation. |
Europe is not the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. Europe was not built on immigration. For them, to suddenly try immigration, with 3rd world immigrants, was probably a bad idea. Just like it'd be a bad idea for South Korea or Japan to begin importing massive numbers of third world immigrants. For the Western countries built by immigration, accepting and adapting new immigrants shouldn't be a problem. The US doesn't attempt to enforce "assimilation." Rather, the American way allows cultures to maintain their independence, while voluntary "assimilating" as they see fit. Thus you can't really predict the future of Islam in America based upon the results in Europe. It's two totally different circumstance and two totally different philosophies. And America's way seems to be working just fine, despite your predictions of doom and destruction. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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BJWD seems pretty convinced of the superiority of modern, Western secular societies, and here I have to agree - they are markedly better than anything else on offer.
Churchill has a quote, "It's been said that democracy is the worst form of government apart from all the other ones that have been tried".
I think that superiority, and the freedoms it affords has a very strong assimilating force, and, apart from certain fanatics, be they religiously, or politically motivated, it does just that.
My experiences with muslims in Australia, from Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon they are all very much invested in living a better life, and they all recognise Australia and it's socity offers that. There was one guy, an ex-Iraqui soldier and vetran of Desert Storm. He was forced into the army at gunpoint and jumped at the chance to get out after he was captured. He was pretty religious, and observed the three daily prayers, the only one who did. He did have some dubious theories about Jews controlling the world. What can you say to that? I told him that was ridiculous, and kept on munching my kebab.
The point is, as Gang Ah Jee, has pointed out, if I argued with him, told him just how "absurd" I thought his faith, prayers, and theories were then he'd just be backed into a corner - all the more prone to being radicalised. As it was we were able to maintain the friendship, and have a dialogue where I could point out some of the failings of his more extreme ideas.
I don't fault you BJWD, for wanting to criticise something you find offensive. Quite the opposite, more power to you. We all probably want the same thing, but we differ in our approaches. I want dialogue not confrontation with muslims.
Churchill has another quote, "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Que? It's not about 'white guilt' or 'multicult' or whatever rightwing buzzwords you've latched on to; it's more about understanding about how ideas work. |
Alright, that just isn't true. And you know it.
If I criticize Christianity, nobody will call me a racist, or say that I'm scared of Christians. I won't be called a bigot.
If I criticize islam, all of a sudden I'm a bigot, and "islamophobe". Dave's goes wild. dd calls me every name in the book.
I could say exactly the same things about Christianity and islam on a university campus in North America, and my comments ONLY about islam will have me suspended or expelled.
This is my biggest problem. It is the blatant, naked double standard that islam is somehow inherently deserving that those discussing it put on respectful kid gloves. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
Que? It's not about 'white guilt' or 'multicult' or whatever rightwing buzzwords you've latched on to; it's more about understanding about how ideas work. |
Alright, that just isn't true. And you know it. |
All I can say, I guess, is that I believe in the ideals of the enlightenment, BJWD, and I do believe that there is a way for muslims and Westerners to integrate in society that leaves all happy with the experience. Perhaps I'm wrong, in which case Allah help us all.
Again though, I'll reiterate: demonising muslims makes for a self-fulfilling prophecy. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| I believe in the ideals of the enlightenment |
Fair enough. I don't feel like debating this tonight, so all I'll say is: They don't. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I believe in the ideals of the enlightenment |
Fair enough. I don't feel like debating this tonight, so all I'll say is: They don't. |
Yes, I know that some don't - but their children might, provided they grow up in societies in which they feel welcome. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| This is my biggest problem. It is the blatant, naked double standard that islam is somehow inherently deserving that those discussing it put on respectful kid gloves. |
Not everything is absolute black and white. Given that minority positions have often had a much harder uphill battle, and have been actively repressed by the majority, attacking the majority view more stringently is often considered fair turn about. A few voices on one side have to contend with many voices on the other. And trying to maintain a "balanced" viewpoint only allows the extremists on the other side to sway the discussion to their side.
In every day, practical language, think of it this way: Do the rednecks and extremists in America attack Christians? Or do they go after the Muslims, Jews, blacks, and gays? Who needs better defending from this mass hysteria? The majority or the minority? In the end, the minority may end up being no better than the majority, but the majorty has had more of a chance to wield their power. And earned the right to more criticism. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
Who needs better defending from this mass hysteria? The majority or the minority? |
9/11, Madrid, London, Bali |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Who needs better defending from this mass hysteria? The majority or the minority? |
9/11, Madrid, London, Bali |
You're right. That's a perfectly acceptable reason for prejudging all of the other Muslims in the world. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Who needs better defending from this mass hysteria? The majority or the minority? |
9/11, Madrid, London, Bali |
You're right. That's a perfectly acceptable reason for prejudging all of the other Muslims in the world. |
How about this one: very little Muslim opposition to radical muslims. i.e. lack of concern from the co-called moderate muslims. Where are they? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Who needs better defending from this mass hysteria? The majority or the minority? |
9/11, Madrid, London, Bali |
You're right. That's a perfectly acceptable reason for prejudging all of the other Muslims in the world. |
How about this one: very little Muslim opposition to radical muslims. i.e. lack of concern from the co-called moderate muslims. Where are they? |
How many moderate Muslims have you spoken to? |
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