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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Alias wrote: |
| I'm sure his joining the Project for the New American Century certainly helped, too. Goodbye any notions of pragmatism, hello neoconservative ideology. |
they were correct the mideast was a threat to the US |
........and you've done a bang up job so far.  |
70,000 trained in AQ camps in Afghanistan before the US took down Saddam.
Not going back to that situation.
The US may need more stuff but a war was declared against the US and the US ought to do what ever is necessary to force the other side to give up their war. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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"keane"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Alias wrote: |
| I'm sure his joining the Project for the New American Century certainly helped, too. Goodbye any notions of pragmatism, hello neoconservative ideology. |
they were correct the mideast was a threat to the US |
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Bull. "It", the entire Mid East, was not a threat to the US. A small group of radicals was a small threat to the US. By small, I mean relatively. Was 9/11 a great tragedy? Yes. Was it an example of a threat to the existence of our nation? Not even remotely close. |
the reason for terror is that mideast regimes teach hate and incite violence as a tactic of war.
It is Al Qaeda but it is also the Khomeni followers and the Bathists.
and it is a threat to the US way of life. The US can not function
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Enough with this warmongering and exaggeration. We have been through a revolution, a civil war and two world wars, yet we exist. Only our own fratricidal war came close to threatening the nation's existing. |
The US ought to do what is necessary to force the other side to give up their war.
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Enough! Quit the lies, quit the bull, quit the fear-mongering. It is all lies, smoke and mirrors.
More people die in the US on a daily basis from a dozen different causes than died on 9/11. Tragic? Yes. But where is your perspective?
We have nothing to fear, but fear itself. |
IF the US had the patriot act then maybe 9-11 would not have happened
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The Muslims did not pas the patriot act, triple our national debt, force us to invade a nation, conduct kidnappings and renditions, hold people indefinitely outside of US and international law, etc. |
Even with the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.
There are many causes of the US debt and one of them was the stock market meltdown .
Saddam never gave up his war.
and the Bathists the khomeni supporters and the Al Qaedists were after the US before 9-11.
The US ought to kidnap and take out AQ supporters when ever it gets the chance.
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If there is a true threat to America and our democracy, it is the hate-mongering, lie-wielding neo-cons. |
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We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.
It is you and those who think like you that are destroying America. It is your silence as presidential power is expanded while you huddle in fear. It is your silence as American, whether guilty or not is irrelevant, are held in indefinite detention without any protections from the Constitution. It is your silence, nee, cheerleading, as torture is made the basic tool of espionage and counter-terrorism rather than the actual gathering of intelligence, infiltrating of groups and the application of the world's foremost police investigative techniques to the problem. |
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Mark my words: if American democracy dies, it will be in danger all over the world. Already others are using our actions for justification of their own Stalinist measures against their own people.
Al Queda knocked down some buildings. You and your ilk are knocking down America. |
Remember it was the opinion of the US govt that they could not convict Bin Laden in a US court. So he was let go.
You said you would rather have 10 9-11s than the Patriot act.
and you root for the Iraqi insurgents.
Anyone who cares about the US ought not listen to you. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| and you root for the Iraqi insurgents |
Please cut and paste. And if you would say such to my face, let us arrange a time and place to share a couple beers. I guarantee you will apologize for having said so. It is easy to lie on a message board, not so easy to do so to a man's face.
The only reason I continue to engage you is that you seem sincere. Most others here do not. I am not blowing smoke up your arse: I do not consider you a competent adversary. I do, however, respect honesty. Thus, I say to you: do not lie about what I have or have not said. My invitation is sincere. Look me in the eye and lie to me. If you are an honest man, you will not end the night without an apology. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
70,000 trained in AQ camps in Afghanistan before the US took down Saddam.
Not going back to that situation. |
OH! IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE NOW!
Create a lawless mess in Iraq so the terrorists wouldn't be able to pass the temptation to go there.
AND SINCE THEY'RE FINDING IT SO EASY TO KILL INFIDELS THERE, THEY WONT BOTHER FLYING TO THE U.S.A. TO DO IT! BRILLIANT!
Neo-cons are fucking geniuses! |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
70,000 trained in AQ camps in Afghanistan before the US took down Saddam.
Not going back to that situation. |
OH! IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE NOW!
Create a lawless mess in Iraq so the terrorists wouldn't be able to pass the temptation to go there.
AND SINCE THEY'RE FINDING IT SO EASY TO KILL INFIDELS THERE, THEY WONT BOTHER FLYING TO THE U.S.A. TO DO IT! BRILLIANT!
Neo-cons are *beep* geniuses! |
IF mideast regimes and elites didn't teach hate and incite violence there would be far less terror.
and mideast regimes are masters of what happens with in their own nations they can make the Al Qaeda supporters disapear if they choose to.
and the US can play a roll by kidnapping and knocking them off when ever the opportunity arises. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Oh come on EFL I know what you said.
YOu didn't say it would be good if the insurgents win?
And your sources are usually junk.
and if I met you face to face and I lost my temper then I would face legal problems.
and even the left wingers on this board think you are out of it. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the whole point of this thread was that Cheney knew what was going to happen in Iraq but went in anyway.
Now maybe he believed that the situation had changed and they had to go in despite the cost. Which is ok I suppose. But he never explained this to the public. They also criticised people who were against the war on the very same grounds as Cheney was in 1994.
That is hypocritical. Why were these arguments not laid out publicly after 9-11 so an honest decision om whether to invade could be made?
Lets forget about whether it was right to invade or not, as that does not seem to be the crux of this particular issue. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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JMO you think the US ought to always tell the truth?
Ok the US goes into Pakistan in a mission against AQ . Then the US publicly denies it.
Right or wrong.
If the US told the real reason for the Iraq war it would have made it much harder for the countries of the region to go after AQ in their own nations. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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If the US told the real reason for the Iraq war it would have made it much harder for the countries of the region to go after AQ in their own nations.
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But you're on here advertising the real reasons for the war all the time. So obviously it's public knowledge now. Has this undermined the ability of those countries to go after AQ? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| (Seeing that most here don't seem to know it )I don't think it is public knowledge and even if it were it is one thing when someone says it on a message board and another if it is said by the US government. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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What I find surprising is that you seemed perfectly ok with the US government lying and at the same time take what they say on other matters at face value.
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| JMO you think the US ought to always tell the truth? |
Stupid question. I don't think they should lie about the seriousness of an upcoming war when they had extremely flimsy reasons for going in in the first place.
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Ok the US goes into Pakistan in a mission against AQ . Then the US publicly denies it.
Right or wrong. |
why would they deny it? Would they have permission from the pakistani govt? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JMO"]
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| What I find surprising is that you seemed perfectly ok with the US government lying and at the same time take what they say on other matters at face value. |
Depends on the case.
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| JMO you think the US ought to always tell the truth? |
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Stupid question. I don't think they should lie about the seriousness of an upcoming war when they had extremely flimsy reasons for going in in the first place. |
They didn't. The US could not contain Saddam forever and they could not contain Iraq and Iran while at the same time pressuring Saudi Arabia.
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why would they deny it? Would they have permission from the pakistani govt? |
Cause it would be embarassing to the Pak government. Paks government would never give permission in a public way. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
I thought the whole point of this thread was that Cheney knew what was going to happen in Iraq but went in anyway.
Now maybe he believed that the situation had changed and they had to go in despite the cost. Which is ok I suppose. But he never explained this to the public. They also criticised people who were against the war on the very same grounds as Cheney was in 1994.
That is hypocritical. Why were these arguments not laid out publicly after 9-11 so an honest decision om whether to invade could be made?
Lets forget about whether it was right to invade or not, as that does not seem to be the crux of this particular issue. |
As far as I am concerned, the Bush Administration which includes Cheney is one of the most incompetent administrations the U.S. has ever had.
Cheney knew there were risks and the administration did not prepare for them. Considering that the risks in 1994 were similar to the ones in 2003 he can't plead that he couldn't have anticipated the problems. The Bush Administration exploited the public for its gain. They deluded the Christian Right into believing they supported their agenda while Cheney has an active gay daughter, Cheney made frightened Americans believe Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were connected. There is nothing to defend whether you are on the Right or Left. Corrupt is as corrupt does. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I think this is an appropriate place to post this, for anyone who cares about "facts" and not letting a guy like Ashcroft to whitewash his own evil, in what Adventurer outlined above......
A review of his "Never again" and it puts it well and adroitly -- Ashcroft is a pure disciple of authoritarianism and "WE" are right and so can do what we damn well want. Mixed up Machievellian mumbojumbo. Read it if you care, appropriately titled, "The Grand Inquisitors" (I do hope some people get the allusion from that great chpt of Dostoevsky -- meaning, some think people don't want to take responsibility for their lives and actually wish for a tyrant, so long as their own neck is not in the noose. )
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20401
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| Ashcroft oversaw the entire domestic response to the attacks of September 11, and in doing so consistently exploited laws�such as those governing immigration�for purposes they were never designed to serve. He orchestrated the raids described earlier. He directed the drafting and negotiation with Congress of the USA Patriot Act, which simultaneously expanded federal surveillance power while watering down judicial checks on that power. He launched the Special Registration program, a national campaign of ethnic profiling that required all male immigrants from Arab and Muslim countries�some 80,000 men�to report to immigration authorities and be fingerprinted, photographed, and interviewed�regardless of whether there was any other basis for suspicion. He authorized warrantless eavesdropping on communications between prisoners and their attorneys. He relaxed the rules for FBI spying, freeing agents to monitor religious services and public meetings without first establishing any basis for suspicion. |
DD |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
I thought the whole point of this thread was that Cheney knew what was going to happen in Iraq but went in anyway.
Now maybe he believed that the situation had changed and they had to go in despite the cost. Which is ok I suppose. But he never explained this to the public. They also criticised people who were against the war on the very same grounds as Cheney was in 1994.
That is hypocritical. Why were these arguments not laid out publicly after 9-11 so an honest decision om whether to invade could be made?
Lets forget about whether it was right to invade or not, as that does not seem to be the crux of this particular issue. |
All good questions. The answer is quite simple: what changed between '94 and '03? (And don't say 9/11 because the two had no connection.) Why would he basically lie by not revealing all the trouble he obviously knew was coming? IF Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and was known to be ridiculous risk, why did we go?
It's as simple as black and green. |
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