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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, well, actually I have no idea what Ron Paul is. But I would not call him "a constitutionalist," especially not as a way that supposedly distinguishes him from other politicians in any meaningful way, in any case.
He is probably "a constitutionalist" in the far, far right-wing, Michigan-Militia sort of way, however. 
See? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| If I thought that he would want to and actually could restrict abortion nationwide, then yes, I would want to rethink my support. |
Fair enough then. However, I'm not convinced he's a true free trader. I think he just moves the goal post, gaining him votes by true libertarians based on "well, one day" hopes and protectionists in the here and now because he doesn't support free trade bills.
And then there's all the racist newsletter stuff he put out. Agree with any of that or got another way to rationalize it? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| And then there's all the racist newsletter stuff he put out. Agree with any of that or got another way to rationalize it? |
Actually, yes (about the rationalizing, not agreeing). I think he felt despondent after the first presidential campaign, decided to not pay attention to what was going on (he didn't write the articles, other people did) for a certain period of time and realized too late what people had been writing. I also think that there was probably someone he knew well that did some of the ghostwriting, well enough that he didn't want to publicly denounce them in 2007 when the issue came up, because he's mostly the type that would rather take the full blame for something than attempt to shift it to someone else.
As with the abortion question, the question is whether a theoretical president Ron Paul would have any racist viewpoints, and the answer to that is no. For example, here's one person Ron Paul has said he would like to see as VP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Williams
Here's his picture:
Nelson Linder, the leader of the NAACP in Austin and a 20-year friend of Ron Paul also doesn't think he's a racist:
http://www.naacpaustin.org/organization/
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=PvFLSwDvBUA
So no, with the racism issue as well I wouldn't have any worries from a Ron Paul presidency. Whenever these issues come up I always look at them in the context of what would actually happen were they to actually become president. It's good to remember also that Ron Paul's view of a president is one with a lot less power, so a lot of power now in the executive would go back into congress. Declaring war, treaties, etc. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| How would the free market have eliminated the pools and trusts of the railroad, coal, and oil refining industries? |
High prices would lead to alternatives. People not in the cabal would find a cheaper way of addressing the need.
Rail roads could be challenged by a canal project. The auto industry broke the rail roads regardless of government intervention. The free market doesn't solve the problem immediately. But I'll take a bottom up approach that takes time to get it right than a government mandated top down approach. |
How would the free market have raised prices given the collusion within three highly integrated sectors of the energy and transportation industries? |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Mith, does dealing with black people make someone not a racist?
This smacks of the legendary
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| I have lots of black friends. |
Walter E. Williams is a lot of racists' "black friend," and the NAACP is under no obligation to represent any views except those that further the interests of its membership. Its membership is not necessarily representative of African-Americans in any real sense. Like any other lobbyist group, the NAACP is (at least now, and arguably always was) largely a businessman's club. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Apparently you didn't understand what I wrote. |
No, I don't think I misunderstood.
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First, I said that Ron Paul hasn't changed his views on abortion. He hasn't. He wants to return many issues to the state level to be handled as per the Constitution. That has not changed. |
Wait for it . . .
there it is.
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there are times when abortion and murder are Federal issues under the jurisdiction of the Federal government and not state issues, for example, in Federally controlled districts, military bases. Therefore, some federal legislation that determines for example that life begins at conception would be required at the Federal level. |
So life only begins at conception if that life is conceived on US Federal Territories?
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This does not mean that such federal legislation would supercede the states' rights. So, he introduces legislation that will affect those areas properly under federal jurisdiction as well. This has not changed either.
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See above. The Federal government should only concern itself with women that get knocked up on military bases?
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Second. It is obvious that you don't understand history, economics or the stockmarket. |
I never claimed I did, and I asked you to tell me since you are clearly much brighter than anyone I've ever heard of.
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The market takes all present information into account in determining the value of stocks. Stock values have NOTHING to do with past performance.
They are based on an estimate of the stream of future values that a particular stock will deliver. The market performs as an agggegation of values and information.
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General market performance is a matter for macro- and not applied micro- economics.
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On the day the stock market crashed in 1929, Congress voted to clear the way for the Smoot-Hawley tariff. It had already been introduced. It's future destructive effects were known. |
WERE known? Congress knew it was going to cause a decade-long depression? Bullsh!t.
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On this day the law's passage, implementation and disasterous impact on the economy was assured.
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How?
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This being the case, traders and investers (sic) knew that the earnings of the individual companies represented by the stocks on Wall Street would suffer. Their FUTURE earnings would collapse. |
No, I'm still waiting for the causal link between something happening in a building in Washington, DC and something happening on a floor in New York City, then all over the world.
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This meant that the present value of those future earnings ie the stock price and the aggregate meaning all the prices as a group called "the market" CRASHED.
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What?
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It has been documented that it was the Smoot-Hawley tariff law that caused the crash. It was the reason the traders and stockholders began selling in earnest. |
You still haven't said a darned thing.
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The market is based on the FUTURE. When governments act in a way that causes the estimates of future values (income streams) to decline as in the Smoot-Hawley tariff, the market will decline, or as in 1929, "CRASH."
This is why stock prices are a leading economic indicator and not a trailing statistic. |
It sounds like you think you just presented a conclusive piece of evidence. You didn't. You gave me poorly-presented community college microeconomics.
Applied Microeconomics does not even arguably encompass "history, economics [and] the stockmarket."
Last edited by Sincinnatislink on Sun May 18, 2008 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| Mith, does dealing with black people make someone not a racist? |
Not always. Depends on the grade of racist.
Grade a: can't talk to a person of another race
Grade b: doesn't like to live in areas with other races
Grade f: would give preferential treatment to one's own race when hiring
Grade l: secretly thinks himself superior but doesn't say anything about it
and all the grades above, below and between.
We're talking about a presidential candidate though, so what I'm curious about is what some think a president Ron Paul would do to set back race relations, status of blacks and other minorities, etc. Would he enact laws against minorities? Would he only appoint whites to his government? What do people envision he would do based on not paying attention to ghostwriters writing racist material in his newsletter almost two decades back?
I'm not challenging you, I'm curious what people actually fear happening in concrete terms. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Hispanics are not a race. Argentina is more than 90% white (European) and Argentines are Hispanic. If an illegal white Argentine is denied health care because he is uninsured, unable to pay and illegal, is this racist? Not extending free health care to illegal residents isn't racist.
Now, if a gal legally migrated to the US and went to a hospital for care and was told "we do not treat Hispanics because they are Hispanic", that would be discriminatory.
The United States is not a charity or an NGO.
The immigration system is in disarray and there needs to be more temporary worker programs similar to the ones that exist in Canada or Hong Kong. The burden of insurance should fall on the employers, as a condition of being able to import labor. But taxpayers must not be forced to pay for the health care of every person who manages to cross the border. Many can hardly afford decent health care for themselves. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| Mith, does dealing with black people make someone not a racist? |
Not always. Depends on the grade of racist.
Grade a: can't talk to a person of another race
Grade b: doesn't like to live in areas with other races
Grade f: would give preferential treatment to one's own race when hiring
Grade l: secretly thinks himself superior but doesn't say anything about it
and all the grades above, below and between.
We're talking about a presidential candidate though, so what I'm curious about is what some think a president Ron Paul would do to set back race relations, status of blacks and other minorities, etc. Would he enact laws against minorities? Would he only appoint whites to his government? What do people envision he would do based on not paying attention to ghostwriters writing racist material in his newsletter almost two decades back?
I'm not challenging you, I'm curious what people actually fear happening in concrete terms. |
I think you're right, Mith, to make gradations for racism. Grade A would include more serious things than not being able to talk to another race. Grade A would mean so racist as to break the law, be it by pursuing a hate-crime or simply engaging in employment/apartment leasing discrimination. Its not actually illegal to hold racist attitudes, and say racist things, on private property. So I think a gradation would have to reflect that. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
The United States is not a charity or an NGO.
. . .
The immigration system is in disarray and there needs to be more temporary worker programs similar to the ones that exist in Canada or Hong Kong. The burden of insurance should fall on the employers, as a condition of being able to import labor. |
You're an idiot.
The worker shortages in Canada and Hong Kong are of a very different variety than those in the US, and both of those countries provide healthcare to temporary workers, much like Korea gives it to you.
Surely you see the difference in kind between yourself and a migrant fruit picker, yes?
Furthermore, the reasoning behind denying these people healthcare is racism. Yes, denying someone healthcare because, for example, he is not Venezuelan, is racist.
Racism is not necessarily about skin color. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Groovy
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| The worker shortages in Canada and Hong Kong are of a very different variety than those in the US, |
How so? Be very specific. Very specific.
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| and both of those countries provide healthcare to temporary workers, much like Korea gives it to you. |
In Canada and Hong Kong, the employer must pay for the premiums of temporary workers that he imports. The workers pay income tax and the employer pays additional taxes to the ones that he would pay for a Canadian or landed immigrant. This is precisely what the United States should do. And precisely what I said should be done.
People in Korea have their health care as a condition of their visa, with premiums shared by the employer and employee. Wow. You're the idiot.
Korea does not "give" jack and/or shit. The worker and an employer pay for it. You stupid hippie. Open your paycheque sometime to look at your deductions.
You don't know what you are talking about. You don't even know the difference between an employee/employer paid health plan and a single payer one. haha.
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Surely you see the difference in kind between yourself and a migrant fruit picker, yes?
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That isn't the question. You've garbled the topic. The question is the difference between a legal worker in Canada or elsewhere and an illegal worker and the United States.
Should Korea give free health care to some Canadian/American unemployable hippie who is "teaching" English illegally in Seoul? If he has a tummy ache, should he be able to go to a hospital and DEMAND treatment with cat-calls of RACIST when he is refused?
Ask your Korean friends what they think. Then call them racists.
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| Furthermore, the reasoning behind denying these people healthcare is racism. |
Being illegal and not having money isn't a race. You haven't supported your position in any way.
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Yes, denying someone healthcare because, for example, he is not Venezuelan, is racist.
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? Huh? You're so confused on so many levels.
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| Racism is not necessarily about skin color. |
No, correct. It is about whatever the left wants it to be about. If the issue is the United States being a big charity for the poor of Mexico, then racism is about that. It is an all flexible, all purpose pejorative and slander to be used with total disregard for the actual meaning of the word. Finally, you got something correct. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| How would the free market have eliminated the pools and trusts of the railroad, coal, and oil refining industries? |
High prices would lead to alternatives. People not in the cabal would find a cheaper way of addressing the need.
Rail roads could be challenged by a canal project. The auto industry broke the rail roads regardless of government intervention. The free market doesn't solve the problem immediately. But I'll take a bottom up approach that takes time to get it right than a government mandated top down approach. |
How would the free market have raised prices given the collusion within three highly integrated sectors of the energy and transportation industries? |
The free market doesn't raise prices. The free market tries to provide the lowest possible cost. How much do you pay for unlimited storage in yahoo mail?
When I refer to high prices I mean the collusion leads to higher than necessary prices. That's the point of collusion, no? |
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