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| Religion? |
| Bad Idea. |
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[ 38 ] |
| Good Idea. |
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26% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 52 |
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Location: National treasures need homes
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Raising animals to serve humans is exploitation, whether or not you observe ISKCON standards. Also, a farm that did observe those standards would not be a business; it would be a nonprofit organization. I'd prefer to support a real sanctuary. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
jajdude
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I'm not sure I understand how modern life encourages people to be jerks though. Is modern life that much different than the past? Have people changed much? Seems to me there hasn't been much change in people's thinking, or nothing much significant anyway, since, well, ever. Small changes here and there but the same basic structures as always. |
It's unprovable of course, but I don't think people are in any way more jerky today than they have been throughout history. I think there have been some tendencies in a positive direction, actually.
For one thing, the availability of literature and media and education allows for a greater scope of recognition of various possibilities - that is, more people today can clearly understand and witness that others exist in the world who live very different lives and carry around many diverging attitudes, and in the end, this is more likely to create greater toleration for differences than has been true throughout much of history. It's a lot easier for people living today to look around and see that the way they live is not the only way. In general, I think it's likely to promote coexistence, and even cooperation.
Religion tends to be an obstacle to this, though, wouldn't you say. There aren't a lot of faiths I can think of that include such an attitude as "Well, of course, we could be all wrong about this, and other people are free to disagree, but here's what we think is going on ..." |
There is more awareness of diversity through education and wider travel, but there's still an awful lot of intolerance. Wherever religion is intolerant then it really isn't religion. How can there really be different religions, each one opposing others and claiming itself to be the right one? This is not religion at all. It's the security of belonging, the urge to be exclusive, and the desire to believe and follow, to identify oneself with something greater. Understanding yourself and being a decent person requires none of that. Those things are obstacles to self-awareness and being a good person, however you interpret that I'm not sure. Prayer too I think is based on self-pity and self-glorification, nicely covered up in terms like humility and reaching out to something greater than oneself. The repetition of words can bring about some solace as the mind has been trained to respond to the words and their emotive content. To think this is religion though is nonsense. Religion has nothing to do with rituals.
People are not different now than they have ever been because human psychology remains the same. Greed, fear, envy and so on persist in human consciousness all over the world. If we do not understand these things we cannot be religious. It's not according to any idea or set of beliefs, or some tradition that tells us what is religious. Maybe we should forget that word, as it seems too loaded. The understanding of yourself is all that matters. Without that you will continue without religion or whatever you want to call it, which is what most people are doing, though they may go to church and pray and believe they are on some path or in touch with something greater. They have been deceived. Their self-projections do not help them understand themselves.
Anyway, these are just some random thoughts. I really have no idea. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| Raising animals to serve humans is exploitation, whether or not you (yadda yadda I know what's right and you should listen to me blablablah. |
Whoa, looks like we got us one great big futhermucking moral authority here. Just what the doctor ordered. Yippee. Not a moment too soon.
Here's something from a couple of years ago, just found it recently ...
15 Questions Militant Atheists Should Ask Before Trying to "Destroy Religion"
jajdude
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| Religion has nothing to do with rituals. |
Actually, most theologians and anthropologists would say it has a LOT to do with ritual: baptism, marriage, funerals - they're significant moments in life that churches want to show approval of and involve the community in ... and I might argue that some rituals might have some societal value as well, making people feel part of a larger group and allowing a framework for people to support and help one another.
A lot of what you are saying, jaj, is what I'd label spirituality, though, and if we used that word I'd have no argument with most of what you are saying. Knowing one's self is useful and beneficial, and for many it's a healthy impulse and a response to fulfilling higher-order needs. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| Raising animals to serve humans is exploitation, whether or not you observe ISKCON standards. Also, a farm that did observe those standards would not be a business; it would be a nonprofit organization. I'd prefer to support a real sanctuary. |
I'm happy to exploit animals because they're tasty and they're not humans and don't enjoy the same rights as humans. I look forward to the day you get animals protected under law as humans but until then I'm going to keep on eating meat. |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Animals don't have the same rights as humans, but humans have a higher responsibity to follow religious principles that respect the sanctity of all forms of life - thus animals should be killed and eaten only when necessary.
Relatively low class people - functioning mainly on the sensual platform - will always be inclined to eat animal flesh, but they should at least refrain from slaughtering cows - which can be eaten after they die naturally.
The "exploiting nature to the max" mindset combined with dramatic scientific advances is a proven recipe for disaster.
Although man-made laws should be respected, God's laws ultimately control the universal system of infallible justice.
Moreover, the distinction should be made between essential religious principles (like cow protection) which are always a good idea and nonessential religious (and sub-religious) principles which may be good for certain types of people according to different times and circumstances, but which may be a bad idea for other types of people in different situations. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Animals don't have the same rights as humans, but humans have a higher responsibity to follow religious principles that respect the sanctity of all forms of life - thus animals should be killed and eaten only when necessary. |
They are your religious principles but not mine.
I'm happy you live by your principles. I'm going to live by mine. I'll pay someone to create life, life that would not normally exist, so I can then eat it. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
jajdude
| Quote: |
| Religion has nothing to do with rituals. |
Actually, most theologians and anthropologists would say it has a LOT to do with ritual: baptism, marriage, funerals - they're significant moments in life that churches want to show approval of and involve the community in ... and I might argue that some rituals might have some societal value as well, making people feel part of a larger group and allowing a framework for people to support and help one another.
A lot of what you are saying, jaj, is what I'd label spirituality, though, and if we used that word I'd have no argument with most of what you are saying. Knowing one's self is useful and beneficial, and for many it's a healthy impulse and a response to fulfilling higher-order needs. |
Bobster, did you listen to me? Those things are not religious. They are following ideas. How can following be religious? Seriously, a man has to understand himself, not follow stuff.
Let's say for a minute that they are wrong, because as arrogant as it may sound, I know they are wrong. Do you wonder how I know? It's quite simple. Every major religion proposes its ideas as the one to follow, based on geography and culture. Yet human psychology has nothing or little to do with culture. It is the same all over the world.
You like terms like religion or spirituality? Forget all that. Think about the basics like fear and greed. These remain a constant for all people. Religion is an idea and so is atheism and agnosticism and all the rest of it.
I'm only providing a description, an explanation, no real understanding exists within me. Do with that what you like. I don't care what most people or experts think. I know most of them are wrong for they are tangled up in words and arguments. We love the intellectual bullshit don't we? I have no idea what religion is, but I can tell you a lot about what it is not.
PS... happy new year, it's fun talking to you, and I love you because I know you are a cool guy. |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Religion means to follow God's laws. Spiritual means in relation to God, the Supreme Spirit - in essence we are all tiny spirits.
Religion should not be based just on sentiment - there should also be scientific understanding of our constitutional position as finite conscious entities vis-a-vis the infinite conscious entity.
Performing rituals just for the sake of performing rituals without progressive development of God consciousness is not very good, but a recent scientific study indicates that there may at least be significant material benefits (like better self-control) as a result of following religious rituals...
www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html?em&exprod=myyahoo |
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itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Animals don't have the same rights as humans, but humans have a higher responsibity to follow religious principles that respect the sanctity of all forms of life - thus animals should be killed and eaten only when necessary. |
They are your religious principles but not mine.
I'm happy you live by your principles. I'm going to live by mine. I'll pay someone to create life, life that would not normally exist, so I can then eat it. |
While you we are at it, we should kill elephants for their tusks!
bears for their gall bladders
all animals for their fur!
keep killing sharks for their fins!
dolphin and whales too
dogs, cats, monkeys, gorillas all fair game!!
meat is meat right Mind me too??
keep all animals for science experiements too
you are a real winner karl!!
ohh what science hasn't confirmed that these animals have feelings yet?
Its human beings duty to care for less fortunate animals! and protect all the animals and the earth ..
and this is the problem with the world! to many stupid human beings and not enough people that care!! |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Religion means to follow God's laws. Spiritual means in relation to God, the Supreme Spirit - in essence we are all tiny spirits.
Religion should not be based just on sentiment - there should also be scientific understanding of our constitutional position as finite conscious entities vis-a-vis the infinite conscious entity.
Performing rituals just for the sake of performing rituals without progressive development of God consciousness is not very good, but a recent scientific study indicates that there may at least be significant material benefits (like better self-control) as a result of following religious rituals...
www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html?em&exprod=myyahoo |
The problem with a study like this is it considers atheists within highly religious settings like the USA. An Atheist tends to be an outsider, with all the accompanying problems. When you do such a study in a place like Sweden, where an atheists is likely to be "in group" the findings disappear. |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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"New atheists" are probably proportionately more represented in the younger age groups that are more prone to binge drinking, etc.
But any words like God (or Christ or Krishna or Allah or Buddha) that are used to refer to the Supreme Lord can be understood (by realized souls) to have some spiritual potency, and they may provide an impetus for following religious principles - originally found in every tradition - that regulate sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling.
Of course, the tendency is that these principles get watered-down in time (eg: Catholics no longer restrict themselves to eating fish instead of red meat on Fridays)
This is an interesting excerpt from the article:
In a study published by the University of Maryland in 2003, students who were subliminally exposed to religious words (like God, prayer or bible) were slower to recognize words associated with temptations (like drugs or premarital sex). Conversely, when they were primed with the temptation words, they were quicker to recognize the religious words.
�It looks as if people come to associate religion with tamping down these temptations,� Dr. McCullough said. �When temptations cross their minds in daily life, they quickly use religion to dispel them from their minds.�
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html?_r=1&em&exprod=myyahoo |
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
"New atheists" are probably proportionately more represented in the younger age groups that are more prone to binge drinking, etc.
But any words like God (or Christ or Krishna or Allah or Buddha) that are used to refer to the Supreme Lord can be understood (by realized souls) to have some spiritual potency, and they may provide an impetus for following religious principles - originally found in every tradition - that regulate sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling.
Of course, the tendency is that these principles get watered-down in time (eg: Catholics no longer restrict themselves to eating fish instead of red meat on Fridays)
This is an interesting excerpt from the article:
In a study published by the University of Maryland in 2003, students who were subliminally exposed to religious words (like God, prayer or bible) were slower to recognize words associated with temptations (like drugs or premarital sex). Conversely, when they were primed with the temptation words, they were quicker to recognize the religious words.
�It looks as if people come to associate religion with tamping down these temptations,� Dr. McCullough said. �When temptations cross their minds in daily life, they quickly use religion to dispel them from their minds.�
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html?_r=1&em&exprod=myyahoo |
Way to bend that to your own agenda. The most meat eating country in the world (the US) happens to also have the largest number of Christians.
Quite frankly I'm sick of you trying to pin all atheists as immoral. As long as we're mining for studies:
http://exchristian.net/2/2006/03/atheists-identified-as-americas-most.html
You're doing a great job promoting the bias and mistrust most atheists are subject to already. I guess tolerance is limited to those who share your worldview. |
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mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Animals don't have the same rights as humans, but humans have a higher responsibity to follow religious principles that respect the sanctity of all forms of life - thus animals should be killed and eaten only when necessary. |
They are your religious principles but not mine.
I'm happy you live by your principles. I'm going to live by mine. I'll pay someone to create life, life that would not normally exist, so I can then eat it. |
While you we are at it, we should kill elephants for their tusks!
bears for their gall bladders
all animals for their fur!
keep killing sharks for their fins!
dolphin and whales too
dogs, cats, monkeys, gorillas all fair game!!
meat is meat right Mind me too??
keep all animals for science experiements too
you are a real winner karl!!
ohh what science hasn't confirmed that these animals have feelings yet?
Its human beings duty to care for less fortunate animals! and protect all the animals and the earth ..
and this is the problem with the world! to many stupid human beings and not enough people that care!! |
Hey, ever seen this video?
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/susan_savage_rumbaugh_on_apes_that_write.html |
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itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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thanks Mith..
great video... |
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itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
"New atheists" are probably proportionately more represented in the younger age groups that are more prone to binge drinking, etc.
But any words like God (or Christ or Krishna or Allah or Buddha) that are used to refer to the Supreme Lord can be understood (by realized souls) to have some spiritual potency, and they may provide an impetus for following religious principles - originally found in every tradition - that regulate sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling.
Of course, the tendency is that these principles get watered-down in time (eg: Catholics no longer restrict themselves to eating fish instead of red meat on Fridays)
This is an interesting excerpt from the article:
In a study published by the University of Maryland in 2003, students who were subliminally exposed to religious words (like God, prayer or bible) were slower to recognize words associated with temptations (like drugs or premarital sex). Conversely, when they were primed with the temptation words, they were quicker to recognize the religious words.
�It looks as if people come to associate religion with tamping down these temptations,� Dr. McCullough said. �When temptations cross their minds in daily life, they quickly use religion to dispel them from their minds.�
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html?_r=1&em&exprod=myyahoo |
Way to bend that to your own agenda. The most meat eating country in the world (the US) happens to also have the largest number of Christians.
Quite frankly I'm sick of you trying to pin all atheists as immoral. As long as we're mining for studies:
http://exchristian.net/2/2006/03/atheists-identified-as-americas-most.html
You're doing a great job promoting the bias and mistrust most atheists are subject to already. I guess tolerance is limited to those who share your worldview. |
well atheists were brought up with christian principals.. so yeah... |
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