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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Zilong wrote: |
| Private charity comes with private strings attached. Public charity comes with public strings attached, which are more open to review and responsive to the participatory process. |
Why do you even bother posting? I've never seen you post anything that isn't a platitude or completely meaningless. If English isn't your native language, I apologize.
Explicate some meaning out of, or add some examples to this nonsense or stfu. Trite cliches, splattered with meaningless/out of context, 10 dollar words do not make you sound smart. |
If you can't unpack the meaning, I suppose that's on you to up your reading comprehension skills or maybe it's just a simple question of improving your vocabulary. Your response was nothing more than a simplistic, snarky iteration on 'fraid not'. |
OK. I'm too stupid to interpret what you were trying to say. Why not do it for me? Maybe I will end up agreeing with you. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| No |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Nothing. That's what you've got.
"Private charity comes with private strings attached" is a meaningless statement. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Charity absolutely is a free market concept, by definition. There can be no "socialist" charity, as all government funding comes from taxes. Welfare is not charity. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
As far as Jesus being a socialist, he did stress charity, that's rather tricky. However, he was not like the kind of Republicans who say if someone has no health insurance, it's not his problem. Jesus healed as many people as he could. The point was their faith. It was not about their money. He even said that a rich man has as much of a chance entering the Kingdom as a camel through an eye of a needle. Essentially, he was saying many wealthy people are blinded by their arrogance.
He also said blessed are the poor (not curse the poor) for they shall inherit the Earth. He also said love thy neighbor as you love yourself and judge not lest thee by judged (not say, get a job, you bum). It doesn't mean he didn't believe people shouldn't productive, they should be... He talked about fruitful fig trees....He did stress the importance of charity and helping others, not saying it's not my problem. He also spoke of when certain people helped others, it was as if they helped Jesus, for others were dear to him.
That's not communism, but it's closer to the ideas of socialism than corporatist capitalism, obviously. |
And obviously corporatism is much closer to socialism than it is to true, free market capitalism. None of the content in your above post even remotely goes to show that Jesus was a socialist. If he had been a socialist Jesus would have advocated centralized government, state intervention in and control over the economy, limits to personal freedom, and forced redistribution of wealth etc. etc. He did no such thing. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
As far as Jesus being a socialist, he did stress charity, that's rather tricky. However, he was not like the kind of Republicans who say if someone has no health insurance, it's not his problem. Jesus healed as many people as he could. The point was their faith. It was not about their money. He even said that a rich man has as much of a chance entering the Kingdom as a camel through an eye of a needle. Essentially, he was saying many wealthy people are blinded by their arrogance.
He also said blessed are the poor (not curse the poor) for they shall inherit the Earth. He also said love thy neighbor as you love yourself and judge not lest thee by judged (not say, get a job, you bum). It doesn't mean he didn't believe people shouldn't productive, they should be... He talked about fruitful fig trees....He did stress the importance of charity and helping others, not saying it's not my problem. He also spoke of when certain people helped others, it was as if they helped Jesus, for others were dear to him.
That's not communism, but it's closer to the ideas of socialism than corporatist capitalism, obviously. |
And obviously corporatism is much closer to socialism than it is to true, free market capitalism. None of the content in your above post even remotely goes to show that Jesus was a socialist. If he had been a socialist Jesus would have advocated centralized government, state intervention in and control over the economy, limits to personal freedom, and forced redistribution of wealth etc. etc. He did no such thing. |
In American capitalism, the poor are often disparaged. You hear of people wondering why they should help others whereas Jesus said bless-e are the poor, as I said, and he also said that a rich man has as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as a camel through an eye of a needle. He also believed in healing people, he was connected to the Essenes, a communitarian group. This doesn't entail a centralized, command economy per se. That's communism. However, socialism does stress helping others and Jesus was for giving to Caesar what's unto Caesar. He was not against the idea of the state. The disciples shared everything in common, and Jesus fed the multitudes.
It's the idea of people helping one another in a collective sense. Thus, what Jesus preached is similar in spirit to what exists in Western Europe and Canada as compare to what the Christian Right, ironically, preaches in politics. Jesus clearly talks about helping those who lack, a sharing of possessions. Jesus also speaks out against judging people, and simply not helping people because they are downtrodden for he was with the lepers, outcasts and was out there to help them.
Supportive Bible Verses:
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in fellowship [...] 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2: 42, 44, 45
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. (King James Version) Acts 4:32-37
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
In American capitalism, the poor are often disparaged. You hear of people wondering why they should help others whereas Jesus said bless-e are the poor, as I said, and he also said that a rich man has as much chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven as a camel through an eye of a needle. He also believed in healing people, he was connected to the Essenes, a communitarian group. This doesn't entail a centralized, command economy per se. That's communism. However, socialism does stress helping others and Jesus was for giving to Caesar what's unto Caesar. He was not against the idea of the state. The disciples shared everything in common, and Jesus fed the multitudes.
It's the idea of people helping one another in a collective sense. Thus, what Jesus preached is similar in spirit to what exists in Western Europe and Canada as compare to what the Christian Right, ironically, preaches in politics. Jesus clearly talks about helping those who lack, a sharing of possessions. Jesus also speaks out against judging people, and simply not helping people because they are downtrodden for he was with the lepers, outcasts and was out there to help them.
Supportive Bible Verses:
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in fellowship [...] 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2: 42, 44, 45
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. (King James Version) Acts 4:32-37
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? |
Dude, you seem to be having trouble wrapping your head around this basic concept... socialism is not about people sharing or helping each other, it's about the state coercively taking the wealth from some people and redistributing it to others (and in nearly every real world case it's to themselves or their corporate cronies, while the poor get thrown a few crumbs).
Jesus said we should be generous to one another, share, and help each other out - voluntarily. That's what charity is: voluntarily giving away wealth to the less fortunate. There is nothing about him ever saying that people or the state are entitled to someone else's money or taxes, or that we should be forced to pay by law.
Jesus was not a socialist by any measure or (proper) definition. Simple as that. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Charity absolutely is a free market concept, by definition. There can be no "socialist" charity, as all government funding comes from taxes. Welfare is not charity. |
Yes it is. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
And obviously corporatism is much closer to socialism than it is to true, free market capitalism. |
That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Private cabals of capitalist organizations built on cheap, disposable human capital (kept cheap an disposable by the lack of government oversight) flood political parties with money to protect their interests, and you call it socialism? Hijacking the political process with the sole intent to pervert rule of law and the legislative process to ensure stockholder get a return on their investment, and you call it socialism? Because it involves a social body and some infrastructure?
The fact that these companies were even allowed to grow so powerful solely rests on the underdevelopment of the public sector and its inability to regulate private entities using their huge reserves of wealth and monopolistic horizontal integration in the late 19th century.
What you are terming free market capitalism is in fact anarcho-capitalism and it would be an unmitigated disaster. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Charity absolutely is a free market concept, by definition. There can be no "socialist" charity, as all government funding comes from taxes. Welfare is not charity. |
Yes it is. |
Case closed. You win.
The extensive and crushing power of your argument has swept all before it in a torrent of fact, eloquence and wit.
But seriously. Why do you even bother posting? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
And obviously corporatism is much closer to socialism than it is to true, free market capitalism. |
That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Private cabals of capitalist organizations built on cheap, disposable human capital (kept cheap an disposable by the lack of government oversight) flood political parties with money to protect their interests, and you call it socialism? Hijacking the political process with the sole intent to pervert rule of law and the legislative process to ensure stockholder get a return on their investment, and you call it socialism? Because it involves a social body and some infrastructure?
The fact that these companies were even allowed to grow so powerful solely rests on the underdevelopment of the public sector and its inability to regulate private entities using their huge reserves of wealth and monopolistic horizontal integration in the late 19th century.
What you are terming free market capitalism is in fact anarcho-capitalism and it would be an unmitigated disaster. |
Care to give a real world example? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
And obviously corporatism is much closer to socialism than it is to true, free market capitalism. |
That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Private cabals of capitalist organizations built on cheap, disposable human capital (kept cheap an disposable by the lack of government oversight) flood political parties with money to protect their interests, and you call it socialism? Hijacking the political process with the sole intent to pervert rule of law and the legislative process to ensure stockholder get a return on their investment, and you call it socialism? Because it involves a social body and some infrastructure? |
Yes, absolutely and obviously. Cartels require government intervention (or corruption) in the economy to exist. Government intervention is socialist, and enriching the elite has always been their goal since day one.
| Quote: |
| The fact that these companies were even allowed to grow so powerful solely rests on the underdevelopment of the public sector and its inability to regulate private entities using their huge reserves of wealth and monopolistic horizontal integration in the late 19th century. |
Actually if you study the history (which you obviously haven't), you'd realize that monopolies like Standard Oil broke many laws and relied on corruption to grow as big as they did, even in the US which didn't have a central bank at the time. However, the main culprit was capital from overseas, like capital from the Bank of England (central bank) which built up the Morgan trust (which then monopolized steel, shipping, and the electrical industry).
The origin of American monopolies was offshore central banking capital from Europe, namely from England. These monopoly men then went on to set up the Federal Reserve and have been funding global socialism (both at home and abroad) ever since. In the case of the Soviet Union and China, it has turned two of the largest countries on earth into captive markets.
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| What you are terming free market capitalism is in fact anarcho-capitalism and it would be an unmitigated disaster. |
What ignorance. No, I am not confusing the terms - you just don't have a clue what you're talking about. I never mentioned anarchy once. Government is essential, but must be limited to preserving the constitution, and have no part in helping out special interests. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Charity absolutely is a free market concept, by definition. There can be no "socialist" charity, as all government funding comes from taxes. Welfare is not charity. |
Yes it is. |
Welfare is not charity. Period. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Zilong is troll and will remain a troll until she responds to the many challenges for evidence and clarification I have made to her. She chooses to pop up in threads with comically uninformed statements then disappears when these challenges are made. The best remedy for trolls is to not feed them. Kind of like stray dogs. |
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