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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor. Who are the zonists on this board? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Your focus on grammatical issues illustrates two glaring facts:
1. My ability to confront and expose the sleazy underbelly of zionism and the holocaust in a public forum makes you very angry.
2. You do not have the intellectual ability to refute anything I say in any meaningful manner. As a result, I suppose punctuation and typos will be your next target. Let us know when you finish the spell check and get back to us on that. No rush, take your time.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Slander is the term used in the posting guidelines of this forum (erroneous or not). Read the terms of usage and then post. 
The terms of usage do not govern the meaning of language.
Someone using incorrect usage does not grant you authority to do the same. However by all means keep using the incorrect terms...it just makes people take you less and less seriously.
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Where is the anger?
I merely pointed out that if you wish to be taken seriously...and you are not here simply to troll, you might wish to be sure that what you type is accurate. Otherwise it will just give more ammunition to those who oppose you. And before using terms like "intellectual ability" be sure that you can demonstrate it yourself. So far you've failed miserably. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Your focus on grammatical issues illustrates two glaring facts:
1. My ability to confront and expose the sleazy underbelly of zionism and the holocaust in a public forum makes you very angry.
2. You do not have the intellectual ability to refute anything I say in any meaningful manner. As a result, I suppose punctuation and typos will be your next target. Let us know when you finish the spell check and get back to us on that. No rush, take your time.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Slander is the term used in the posting guidelines of this forum (erroneous or not). Read the terms of usage and then post.
The terms of usage do not govern the meaning of language.
Someone using incorrect usage does not grant you authority to do the same. However by all means keep using the incorrect terms...it just makes people take you less and less seriously.
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I don't get what there is to expose about the holocaust? The holocaust is acknowledged by Norman Finkelstein. His mother and father both survived the holocaust. Historians state generally anywhere from 5.1 million to 6+ million Jews died. A few people have said four million.
The numbers are not the exact point, but the fact that millions of Jews met their death is an issue.
The Jews who died weren't connected to Zionism per se. It was much connected with the fact that some Jews were socialists and some generalized Jews and wanted to eliminate them. The holocaust saw the death of millions gentiles, perhaps 5 to 6 million gentiles. Hitler also blamed Jews for Germany's loss during World War I. Germany suffered after World War I and the Germans were in many cases angry and turned on the British, French, and Jews in Europe. That's partially the fault of Britain and France, but that's another story. The Nazi Holocaust is real, a tragedy of a huge magnitude against Jews and non-Jews that Hitler's war machine decided to eliminate and millions who are included in the figure died of starvation and not necessarily in the camps.
As far as Zionism, there is not much of a critique of it in the U.S., because people are nervous to touch Arab-Israeli politics. Finkelstein did not get tenure at De Paul University, because he challenged Alan Dershowitz, who he views as an apologist for Israel's human rights abuses.
The U.S. is a staunch ally of Israel, and people don't criticize their allies heavily.
That said, Bush senior criticized Israel, but his son avoided that as much as possible in contrast to his father. Obama is criticizing Israel and so are many American Jews. Zionists are not uniform in their thinking, by the way. For many Israelis, to be a Zionist is to believe in the existence of their state. It doesn't mean they sanction racist practices by believing in their state. It's more complicated than that. There are many critics of the Israeli Government who consider themselves Zionists on some level.
Also, AIPAC and J-Street are not identical. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I hope you don't mind me highlighting some of your text.
In a nutshell, the most important thing to expose about the holocaust is its utility for intimidating others into silence on what are becoming urgent human rights issues in Palestine.
Obama has criticized Israel?
The question regarding the existance of Israel is a faux-issue. It is militarily meaningless. It is used as a litmus test for determining anti-semitism. If you deny their right to exist, god help you, but once you acknowledge this 'right' it is a walk-in-the-park to justify settlements, apartheid walls, and genocide.
The result? If you advocate Israel's 'right to exist' you will soon find yourself in a corner where you must side with Israel's repulsive behavior in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank. You will soon be siding with genocide.
Either that or your only other choice is to advocate a 'one state solution' in which Israel's 'ethnic democracy' is dissolved and all citizens are treated equally with no regard to their race (disguised as ethnicity under the current regime).
Those are the only two possible conditions of Israel's right to exist: A one state solution or state-sponsored, U.S.-backed genocide. Suggesting otherwise is simply filibustering, which we have now been doing for over thirty years.
| adventurer wrote: |
I don't get what there is to expose about the holocaust? The holocaust is acknowledged by Norman Finkelstein. His mother and father both survived the holocaust. Historians state generally anywhere from 5.1 million to 6+ million Jews died. A few people have said four million.
The numbers are not the exact point, but the fact that millions of Jews met their death is an issue.
The Jews who died weren't connected to Zionism per se. It was much connected with the fact that some Jews were socialists and some generalized Jews and wanted to eliminate them. The holocaust saw the death of millions gentiles, perhaps 5 to 6 million gentiles. Hitler also blamed Jews for Germany's loss during World War I. Germany suffered after World War I and the Germans were in many cases angry and turned on the British, French, and Jews in Europe. That's partially the fault of Britain and France, but that's another story. The Nazi Holocaust is real, a tragedy of a huge magnitude against Jews and non-Jews that Hitler's war machine decided to eliminate and millions who are included in the figure died of starvation and not necessarily in the camps.
As far as Zionism, there is not much of a critique of it in the U.S., because people are nervous to touch Arab-Israeli politics. Finkelstein did not get tenure at De Paul University, because he challenged Alan Dershowitz, who he views as an apologist for Israel's human rights abuses.
The U.S. is a staunch ally of Israel, and people don't criticize their allies heavily.
That said, Bush senior criticized Israel, but his son avoided that as much as possible in contrast to his father. Obama is criticizing Israel and so are many American Jews. Zionists are not uniform in their thinking, by the way. For many Israelis, to be a Zionist is to believe in the existence of their state. It doesn't mean they sanction racist practices by believing in their state. It's more complicated than that. There are many critics of the Israeli Government who consider themselves Zionists on some level.
Also, AIPAC and J-Street are not identical. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
The U.S. is a staunch ally of Israel, and people don't criticize their allies heavily.
... There are many critics of the Israeli Government who consider themselves Zionists on some level. |
And there are many Jews who oppose Zionism, like Jews Against Zionism, Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism, and Jews not Zionists. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, and the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine before Israel (called the Old Yishuv) had absolutely no political aspirations and thought the zionists were clowns.
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I support a two state solution to the conflict in the interim, but in the distant future, I think one state should be formed with Jews and Palestinians as part of one democratic entity. I do not agree with what Israel has done in Lebanon in the 1980s, in Gaza in 2009, or the occupation since 1967 of the Golan Heights, the Shebaa Farms of Lebanon. Israel has acted horribly in the region, but I do care about the welfare of both Palestinians and Jews and for peace and stability for the region rather than inflaming the situation. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: |
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A two state solution isn't going to happen under the current power distribution, nor would it cut down on the violence if one was implemented. I used to support a two state solution. The facts on the ground prohitbit it. The only reason politicians advocate it is becasue it is the only plausible-sounding solution. Everyone knows it isn't going to happen but they keep up the song and dance. Barack will be no different.
There will be a one-state solution after the third world war -- in 20 to 50 years.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I support a two state solution to the conflict in the interim, but in the distant future, I think one state should be formed with Jews and Palestinians as part of one democratic entity. I do not agree with what Israel has done in Lebanon in the 1980s, in Gaza in 2009, or the occupation since 1967 of the Golan Heights, the Shebaa Farms of Lebanon. Israel has acted horribly in the region, but I do care about the welfare of both Palestinians and Jews and for peace and stability for the region rather than inflaming the situation. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:52 am Post subject: |
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One state solution and right of return absoutely - just as soon as liberal democracy becomes the way things are done in the middle east. 2 state solution or liberal democracy .
Bathists , Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists, those who follow Nasser , Khaddafy, Hizzbollah and all those who follow a similar ideology can't be trusted to govern or protect their minority groups. Israel might be a racist state but its enemies are MORE racist and have done worse , do worse and would do worse. No Question about it. No one can show otherwise.
Israel at present offers protection from their sinister rule
Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists and Bathists are all fascistic bigots.
Their existence is a far greater injustice than Israel.
Case closed.
Khaddafy must step down
Ali Khamani must give up power. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
One state solution and right of return absoutely - just as soon as liberal democracy becomes the way things are done in the middle east. 2 state solution or liberal democracy .
Bathists , Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists, those who follow Nasser , Khaddafy, Hizzbollah and all those who follow a similar ideology can't be trusted to govern or protect their minority groups. Israel might be a racist state but its enemies are MORE racist and have done worse , do worse and would do worse. No Question about it. No one can show otherwise.
Israel at present offers protection from their sinister rule
Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists and Bathists are all fascistic bigots.
Their existence is a far greater injustice than Israel.
Case closed.
Khaddafy must step down
Ali Khamani must give up power. |
Israel is better than Lebanon? I am not really sure that it's more moral than all its neighbors per se. That's rather debatable. It seems like you're excusing the need for Israel to treat people under its control with dignity and give them their human rights. Also, the region was not quite like this some decades ago. Don't forget, one reason Iran has such a backward government was because of meddling with Iran's internal affairs and overthrowing a democratically elected government. It backfired. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
One state solution and right of return absoutely - just as soon as liberal democracy becomes the way things are done in the middle east. 2 state solution or liberal democracy .
Bathists , Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists, those who follow Nasser , Khaddafy, Hizzbollah and all those who follow a similar ideology can't be trusted to govern or protect their minority groups. Israel might be a racist state but its enemies are MORE racist and have done worse , do worse and would do worse. No Question about it. No one can show otherwise.
Israel at present offers protection from their sinister rule
Khomeni followers , Al Qaedists and Bathists are all fascistic bigots.
Their existence is a far greater injustice than Israel.
Case closed.
Khaddafy must step down
Ali Khamani must give up power. |
Israel is better than Lebanon? I am not really sure that it's more moral than all its neighbors per se. That's rather debatable. It seems like you're excusing the need for Israel to treat people under its control with dignity and give them their human rights. Also, the region was not quite like this some decades ago. Don't forget, one reason Iran has such a backward government was because of meddling with Iran's internal affairs and overthrowing a democratically elected government. It backfired. |
It is debatable if Lebanon has a functioning govenrment, but I would say Israel is better. Any jews in Lebanon? Arabs in Israel have it (much ) better than Jews in Lebanon.
and in fact many Palestinians in Lebanon 60 years after the facts still are not allowed to work.
| Quote: |
| Lebanon, which places them in a situation akin to that of second class citizens and denies them access to their full range of human rights, even though most of them were born and raised in Lebanon |
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGMDE180102007
Certainly better than Hizzbollah
and yes better than Lebanon.
While the settlements are wrong the occupation is not illegal . End of occupation for end of war what is the problem ?The west bank and Gaza are not Israel they are war zones. If the Palestinian side says if you withdraw no more military action you will have a point. But Hamas doesn't say if you withdraw no more war.
And of course Gaza and the West Bank would not be under any occupation if Arafat had accepted Bill Clinton's offer 12/ 2000.
. Iran 's government is responsible for its own actions 60 years after the fact.
And Shaba farms is part of Syria not Lebanon. Indeed Syria thinks all of Lebanon belongs to them.
As I said Israel's enemies are worse than Israel and it is true.
Just like Israel and Gaza.
| Quote: |
Thousands flee Lebanon refugee camp slaughter
Nicholas Blanford in Nahr al-Bared refugee camp
Thousands of desperate Palestinian refugees took advantage of a brief ceasefire to flee the beleaguered Nahr al-Bared camp yesterday as battles between the Lebanese Army and Islamic militants from Fatah al-Islam entered a third day. |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1826724.ece
Israel didn't use any more force than Lebanon did.
Israel was a mistake and it is a close to being a failed state Nevertheless Israel's enemies are worse.
It is not a matter for debate.
Three just options for Israel's enemies
1) accept Israel
2) accept liberal democracy
3) go to the devil. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Israel is the world's only ethnic democracy. That means, they are commonly given the moniker of a democracy without actually being one. Far from it. Arabs have nothing resembling equal rights in Israel. The knee-jerk response to this glaring fact by folks like Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee is:
Oh yea, well Syria is worse. Saudi Arabia is worse. First they shoud change and then Israel will.
We know perfectly well that those cultures are not going to transform themselves to please western tastes, so Israel and its supporters use those ancient facts of arab culture as a carte blanche justification to continue with their vicious crimes against humanity, unfettered.
What is an 'ethnic democracy'? Again, there is only one. Its foundations are based (on the surface) on using the holocaust as a justification for creating a "Jewish state". Underneath the thin veneer of the holocaust is racism, pure and simple. Why can't anyone else create a 'democracy' that only recognizes a certtain ethnicity for complete inclusion?
Because they don't have the holocasut. 
We now begin to understand how important the holocaust is to Israel. Why it is necessary to keep the numbers pumped up and to slander and smear anyone who expresses any doubts about it.
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Israel was a mistake and it is a close to being a failed state Nevertheless Israel's enemies are worse.
It is not a matter for debate.
Three just options for Israel's enemies
1) accept Israel
2) accept liberal democracy
3) go to the devil. |
Last edited by Trevor on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Israel is the world's only ethnic democracy. That means, they are commonly given the moniker of a democracy without actually being one. Far from it. Arabs have nothing resembling equal rights in Israel. The knee-jerk response to this glaring fact by folks like Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee is:
Oh yea, well Syria is worse. Saudi Arabia is worse. First they shoud change and then Israel will.
We know perfectly well that those cultures are not going to transform themselves to please western tastes, so Israel and its supporters use those ancient facts of arab culture as a carte blanche justification to continue with their vicious crimes against humanity, unfettered.
What is an 'ethnic democracy'. Again, there is only one. Its foundations are based (on the surface) on using the holocaust as a justification for creating a "Jewish state". Why can't anyone else create a 'democracy' that only recognizes a certtain ethnicity for complete inclusion?
Because they don't have the holocasut.
We now begin to understand how important the holocaust is to Israel. Why it is necessary to keep the numbers pumped up and to slander and smear anyone who expresses any doubts about it.
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Israel was a mistake and it is a close to being a failed state Nevertheless Israel's enemies are worse.
It is not a matter for debate.
Three just options for Israel's enemies
1) accept Israel
2) accept liberal democracy
3) go to the devil. |
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Israel's enemies are ruled by thugs that treat their minority groups far worse than Israel does.
Well since Israel's enemies are worse it is a greater injustice that they exist.
Until they change their probably ought to be a Israel. Cause Bathists , Khomeni followers and Al Qaedists can't be trusted to protect their minority groups or govern.
It is not arab culture is that Bathists , Khomeni followers and Al Qaedists are fascist bigots.
I just luv how you apologize for their vicious crimes against humanity and their creepy war against Israel just cause you don't like Israel.
It seems that you have no problem with vicious crimes against humanity when they are done by Israel's enemies and especially if the target is jews.
Ethnic democracy is a foolish idea , however Bathism , Khomenism and Al Qaedism are worse. They are far more creul and far more racists.
In fact here is a good reason for Israel . Cause Bathists , Khomeni followers and Al Qaedists when they are in charge persecute minorites. Them being in power or gaining more power is even worse than zionism.
Why can't anyone else create a 'democracy' that only recognizes a certtain ethnicity for complete inclusion?
You are right. Why can't Israel's enemies crate a democracy that doesn't persecute minority groups?
Until that time there might need to be an Israel.
Wow Trevor who is supposedly all upset about racism , just refers to racism and persection of minorities by Israel's enemies as nothing more than not conforming to western tastes.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Israel is the world's only ethnic democracy. That means, they are commonly given the moniker of a democracy without actually being one. Far from it. Arabs have nothing resembling equal rights in Israel. The knee-jerk response to this glaring fact by folks like Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee is:
Oh yea, well Syria is worse. Saudi Arabia is worse. First they shoud change and then Israel will.
We know perfectly well that those cultures are not going to transform themselves to please western tastes, ] |
So then why the heck should Israel? |
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