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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Location: Busan
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Without competition monopolies can charge what they like. The many consumers pay for the unwarrented profit for the few at the top = they're inefficient. This is stopped with regulation. This supports the view that unregulated capitalism advantages those who are already rich/already hold a monopoly. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| This is pretty much the same wall we hit every time. What proof is there that regulation has a net social benefit over doing nothing? Sure the monopoly is inefficient but is it more or less inefficient than simply letting the market correct itself? And how do you know? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Without competition monopolies can charge what they like. The many consumers pay for the unwarrented profit for the few at the top = they're inefficient. This is stopped with regulation. This supports the view that unregulated capitalism advantages those who are already rich/already hold a monopoly. |
But in the real world, government creates monopolies (and oligopolies) through preferential regulation bought with political contributions.
Which companies do you think are monopolies today? Let's just get down to real world examples. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Location: Busan
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| What proof is there that regulation has a net social benefit over doing nothing? |
In a monopoly there's something called 'Deadweight Loss'. Mises, you're a trained economist, surely you understand monopolies - the result of unregulated capitalism - are bad for an economy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_weight_loss
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Sure the monopoly is inefficient but is it more or less inefficient than simply letting the market correct itself? |
Markets can't self-regulate, this is elementary economics. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| What proof is there that regulation has a net social benefit over doing nothing? |
In a monopoly there's something called 'Deadweight Loss'. Mises, you're a trained economist, surely you understand monopolies - the result of unregulated capitalism - are bad for an economy! |
I know what a dead weight loss is. Govt regulation causes them, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_weight_loss
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Sure the monopoly is inefficient but is it more or less inefficient than simply letting the market correct itself? |
Markets can't self-regulate, this is elementary economics.
[/quote]
?What? And a govt bureaucrat knows every possible outcome and can plan for every eventuality?
I think you are suffering from the nirvana fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Location: Busan
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, of course, goverment intervention can cause inefficiency, but unregulated capitalism (and monopolies) certainly do. Are you arguing for no regulation Mises? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Yes, of course, goverment intervention can cause inefficiency, but unregulated capitalism (and monopolies) certainly do. Are you arguing for no regulation Mises? |
Govt regulation (taxes, tariffs, price ceilings/floors, minimum wage laws, unions etc) cause inefficiency by defintion. You said it yourself, it's called a dead weight loss. Free markets don't tend towards deadweight loss as the market "clears" at a given price and quantity of goods. That is all the goods sell at a price the consumer is willing to buy and the firm is willing to sell. Govt regs are the number one cause of markets not clearing.
A monopoly may not be the perfect situation but is merely transitory as the monopolistic firm will lose its monopoly postion over time. There is nothing to suggest the govt intervening will lead to a better outcome than simply letting the monopoly exist. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Location: Busan
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Govt regulation (taxes, tariffs, price ceilings/floors, minimum wage laws, unions etc) cause inefficiency by defintion. |
We're talking about monopolies and the way that in an unregulated capitalist society they are in a exclusive position, and therefore able to be exploitative - not all government regulation
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| ...all the goods sell at a price the consumer is willing to buy and the firm is willing to sell. |
Yes, optimal efficiency which doesn't happen in a monopoly.
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| A monopoly... is merely transitory as the monopolistic firm will lose its monopoly postion over time. |
But this doesn't happen in an industy where there are increasing returns to scale or in a market where the cost of entry is too high or competition can be kept out by the monopoly.
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| There is nothing to suggest the govt intervening will lead to a better outcome than simply letting the monopoly exist. |
Yes there is. By introducing regulation against price-gouging etc. deadweight loss can be reduced.
Regulation for natural monopolies and those created via innovation are embedded in western economies. But do you guys think there shouldn't be any such 'anti-trust' etc. regulation? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Location: Easy Street.
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| If you believe a business needs to be subsidised to be efficient, you don't understand what efficient means. |
Explain to me how deregulation has made the financial sector so efficient it doesn't need subsidizing. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with economics is that it exists almost solely in theory. Ask an "economist" anything and he'll say:
Assume you have blah blah
The problem is that life doesn't fit their assumptions. The whole thing needs to be tossed in the trash and restarted. Economic history must play more of a role.
So, in relation to this topic, from "assume you have blah blah" and then on to monopoly etc I reject the premise. I want a real world example that can be discussed in a specific context.
Government has her fingers in every little corner of every economy on earth. We have, in modern times, little evidence about mythical "unregulated free markets" beyond propaganda fed to naive undergrads. What we do know, from economic history, is that monopolies are not naturally occurring. This, not because of some dogmatic explanation of economics, but because there is no unmolested market to serve as a sample. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| If you believe a business needs to be subsidised to be efficient, you don't understand what efficient means. |
Explain to me how deregulation has made the financial sector so efficient it doesn't need subsidizing. |
What deregulation? You mean substituting one set of regulations for another, right? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Location: Busan
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| What we do know, from economic history, is that monopolies are not naturally occurring. |
I'm pretty speechless a trained economist would ever say this. I mean, it's incredible.
So do monopolies never exist, or are they only created by government intervention? |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| If you believe a business needs to be subsidised to be efficient, you don't understand what efficient means. |
Explain to me how deregulation has made the financial sector so efficient it doesn't need subsidizing. |
LOL |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Location: Easy Street.
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| If you believe a business needs to be subsidised to be efficient, you don't understand what efficient means. |
Explain to me how deregulation has made the financial sector so efficient it doesn't need subsidizing. |
What deregulation? You mean substituting one set of regulations for another, right? |
So if only there had been True Deregulation, the Free Market would have brought Balance to the Economy? Am I reading you correctly? They say Free Market Capitalism has never worked, but you say that's only because it's never been tried, right? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| If you believe a business needs to be subsidised to be efficient, you don't understand what efficient means. |
Explain to me how deregulation has made the financial sector so efficient it doesn't need subsidizing. |
What deregulation? You mean substituting one set of regulations for another, right? |
So if only there had been True Deregulation, the Free Market would have brought Balance to the Economy? Am I reading you correctly? They say Free Market Capitalism has never worked, but you say that's only because it's never been tried, right? |
Yes. |
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