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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| Fox wrote: |
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See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Saying that Israel has the most reasonable claim based on the available evidence is not endorsing a claim, it's stating an opinion.
As for the "I prefer to.." comment, it was clearly said tongue-in-cheek (see the comment from the last poster above it) Maybe I'll start putting smilies in again.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
[
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Saying that Israel has the most reasonable claim based on the available evidence is not endorsing a claim, it's stating an opinion. |
Endorsements are all ultimately opinions. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
[
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Saying that Israel has the most reasonable claim based on the available evidence is not endorsing a claim, it's stating an opinion. |
All an endorsement ultimately is is stating an opinion. |
But a true endorsement may or may not be concerned with the facts.
If evidence should emerge that Israel is fabricating its conclusion that these groups may be agents of a foreign government then I will be happy to admit that I was wrong. Like I said "based on the available evidence."
Going over the evidence and making a determination over who is more likely to be telling the truth (especially in light of the events that led Israel to make these statements) is hardly an endorsement. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But a true endorsement may or may not be concerned with the facts. |
To be entirely honest, I've yet to see you present any facts that make me feel like Israel is a particuarly trustworthy source on this issue. Governments are more than happy to outright lie as it suits them. I'm not saying Israel is or isn't lying, just that I think Bacasper's request for proof is totally reasonable within the context of the conversation, as Israel's word alone isn't particularly compelling.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Going over the evidence and making a determination over who is more likely to be telling the truth (especially in light of the events that led Israel to make these statements) is hardly an endorsement. |
You didn't limit yourself to saying it's merely more likely that Israel is telling the truth, though, you said you believed Israel.
I feel very much like you want to present Israel's case at fact, but simultaneously desire to avoid having to defend or prove said case in any way, shape, or form. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But a true endorsement may or may not be concerned with the facts. |
To be entirely honest, I've yet to see you present any facts that make me feel like Israel is a particuarly trustworthy source on this issue. Governments are more than happy to outright lie as it suits them. I'm not saying Israel is or isn't lying, just that I think Bacasper's request for proof is totally reasonable within the context of the conversation, as Israel's word alone isn't particularly compelling.
Like I said Israel would likely have more first-hand proof than you or I, so short of asking them for proof, I hardly see where some expat on a messageboard is more reliable.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Going over the evidence and making a determination over who is more likely to be telling the truth (especially in light of the events that led Israel to make these statements) is hardly an endorsement. |
You didn't limit yourself to saying it's merely more likely that Israel is telling the truth, though, you said you believed Israel.
I also said that particular comment was tongue in cheek..I went back to edit my post to clarify that, but you got a post in first.
I feel very much like you want to present Israel's case at fact, but simultaneously desire to avoid having to defend or prove said case in any way, shape, or form. |
Nah...I'm just bored.
EDIT:
But since you asked: You have an organization collecting funds in a heavily policed and repressive state (let's call it state A). Said organization is known to make rather negative reports about another state (let's call it state B) whom State A does not particularly care for. Given State A's nature it is unlikely they would permit a foreign-based organization to collect funds, unless they agreed with its aims. Given too that said organization desires to raise funds there...its impartiality is now under question and legitimately so.
Based on this info, I feel that drawing a conclusion that Israel may be right or mostly in the right on this issue is warranted. It's certainly not a just a knee-jerk opinion.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:43 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Like I said Israel would likely have more first-hand proof than you or I, so short of asking them for proof, I hardly see where some expat on a messageboard is more reliable. |
I don't disagree that a random expatriate on a message board isn't particularly reliable. Solid, sourced media reports on the other hand are in my estimation often more reliable than government statements on most topics.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I also said that particular comment was tongue in cheek..I went back to edit my post to clarify that, but you got a post in first. |
Okay. Sorry, I know that can be annoying. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I prefer to believe those who know more about the facts than you or I...like the Israeli government. |
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Yes, especially after taunting me into a reply with
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| vistorq/bacaper anything to add? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I prefer to believe those who know more about the facts than you or I...like the Israeli government. |
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Yes, especially after taunting me into a reply with
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| vistorq/bacaper anything to add? |
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How is that a taunt? I asked if you or the other guy had anything to say to my rebuttal. If you are referring to the misspelling of your name, that was unintentional. I'm a horrible speller and I don't always hit Spell Check. I admit it. That aside, DO you have anything to say about the article or not? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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^ I'm not falling for that set-up again.
TheUrbanMyth, do you care to respond to my post? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I prefer to believe those who know more about the facts than you or I...like the Israeli government. |
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Yes, especially after taunting me into a reply with
| Quote: |
| vistorq/bacaper anything to add? |
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How is that a taunt? I asked if you or the other guy had anything to say to my rebuttal. If you are referring to the misspelling of your name, that was unintentional. I'm a horrible speller and I don't always hit Spell Check. I admit it. That aside, DO you have anything to say about the article or not? |
Yeah, I'd just like to add that you're not even worth debating. You don't rebuttle, you just fill threads with your petty arrogance and sarcasm, which would be fine if it weren't that you're nearly always wrong (at least in threads I've been involved in), and proven to be so. Not that you'd ever admit it, which brings me full circle. Beyond that you just plain bore me.
You want the last word? (of course you do). Have at it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Israel attacks Human Rights Watch |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I prefer to believe those who know more about the facts than you or I...like the Israeli government. |
See, when you say things like this, you're moving beyond merely presenting Israel's side of the story, and into endorsing it. Once you've done that, it becomes totally reasonable to ask you for proof, because endorsing a claim is tantamount to making it. |
Yes, especially after taunting me into a reply with
| Quote: |
| vistorq/bacaper anything to add? |
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How is that a taunt? I asked if you or the other guy had anything to say to my rebuttal. If you are referring to the misspelling of your name, that was unintentional. I'm a horrible speller and I don't always hit Spell Check. I admit it. That aside, DO you have anything to say about the article or not? |
Yeah, I'd just like to add that you're not even worth debating. You don't rebuttle, you just fill threads with your petty arrogance and sarcasm, which would be fine if it weren't that you're nearly always wrong (at least in threads I've been involved in), and proven to be so. Not that you'd ever admit it, which brings me full circle. Beyond that you just plain bore me.
You want the last word? (of course you do). Have at it. |
So you have nothing to say beyond personal attacks. claims that are always proven wrong and TOS violations? Okay, at least we agree on that. Hopefully from now on I'll be spared your nonsense.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
^ I'm not falling for that set-up again.
TheUrbanMyth, do you care to respond to my post? |
To the best of my knowledge I have responded to pretty much all of them in this thread...which exact post are you talking about? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
^ I'm not falling for that set-up again.
TheUrbanMyth, do you care to respond to my post? |
To the best of my knowledge I have responded to pretty much all of them in this thread...which exact post are you talking about? |
Never mind.  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Who in the Human rights group made the statement?
What is their name?
What is their history?
Do they have any personal hang ups about Israel or Palestine?
Are they truly neutral?
We accept that Human rights Group are neutral, but are they really?
What information do we have that they criticise all participants equally? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| What information do we have that they criticise all participants equally? |
The odds that all participants would deserve criticism exactly equally are extremely remote. |
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