Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Danish Cartoon: Was it Worth It?

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Danish Cartoon: Was it Worth It?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Was it worth it?

Certainly

50%

[ 11 ]

Probably

[ 0 ]

Not sure

13%

[ 3 ]

Probably not

18%

[ 4 ]

Certainly not

13%

[ 3 ]

I couldn't give a rat's ****

[ 1 ]

Total Votes : 22

Author

Message

blackjack

Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If my neigbour has a vicious dog i don't go poking it with sticks

djsmnc

Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject:

blackjack wrote:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

If my neigbour has a vicious dog i don't go poking it with sticks

I suppose holding offensive illustrations to cause Muslims to foam at the mouth does sound a bit Pavlovian.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject:

blackjack wrote:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

If my neigbour has a vicious dog i don't go poking it with sticks

Yes. Instead you go to the relevant authorities to lodge a complaint and have the dog put down.

One should not have to cower in fear of a vicious dog next door just as one should not have to cower in fear of some fanatical extremists.

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject:

blackjack wrote:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

If my neigbour has a vicious dog i don't go poking it with sticks

I agree with the others: with respect, yours is a rather poor anology. This is more fitting:

1) Your neighbor has six dogs.
2) One of the dogs becomes vicious and attacks people; but only if they wear pink socks.
3) The dog's behavior must be corrected.

blackjack

Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject:

Kimbop wrote:

blackjack wrote:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

If my neigbour has a vicious dog i don't go poking it with sticks

Yeah I know it was a poor analogy, but to continue with yours, while retraining it I don't wear pink socks for the purpose of annoying it. I might wear a red hat, or have a pink ribbon

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

So when Nixon visited China in '72, do you think it would have done a lot to win public opinion over to the American camp if he had gotten up in front of an audience and said "Oh by the way, your beloved Chairman is actually a senile old mass murderer?"

Most Chinese already know and acknowledge that Mao was a mass murderer. Many world leaders openly criticize China's barbarity--past and present-- but I see your point. It wouldn't have gone over very well, since China is an evil authoritarian dictatorship, like most places in the ME. If we're talking Chinese "public support", a majority of them want freedom. Most importantly: the short student who stood in front of the tanks did "win public support" for freedom, although he seemingly paid with his life. Was his death worth it? Absolutely.

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject:

blackjack wrote:

Yeah I know it was a poor analogy, but to continue with yours, while retraining it I don't wear pink socks for the purpose of annoying it.

No, you wear pink because you're hosting the "Pink Color Fanclub and Flamingo Appreciation Society" Annual Get-Together at your estate, and you have no time for crazy dogs. (Or perhaps you wear your pink socks for whatever darn reason you want. It doesn matter: you are the master.)

Anyhoo, the dog will darn-well better learn quick through cognitive restructuring & behaviour therapy.

Or maybe jail time or the electric chair. Some dogs cant be broke.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject:

Absolute. All kinds of dogs, Kimbop. If you play with fire, and the fire burns you, it is not really the fire's fault -- especially if you are an adult and should know better. Sure, you certainly have the right to play with fire all you like. But please do not whine about it when it burns you.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

What? Are you saying all men aren't down with rape?

Well, yes, but more saliently I'm saying that masculinity and Islam aren't really comparable things.

You seem to see Islamic world as one monolithic mass, rather than a collection of 1.3 billion individuals - were more than 1 billion people somehow share responsibility for the extreme actions of a small minority of radicals. There are various schools of Islam, and even within these schools the individuals practising their religion adhere to varying philosophies within these. The "Islam" that you think of, is actually a fairly recent phenomenon - unrecognisable to most practitioners of Islam. This ideology only became widespread in the 20th century - due to the efforts of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the oil driven fortune of the Saudi Wahabis (the Wahabists have long been considered a deviant sect by other muslims since they first came into being a couple of centuries ago).

In fact, those who eventually get out of these cults (such as the organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir) regularly remark that they have since re-educated themselves about Islam and now see the ideology they had been inducted into as a twisted deviation from 'true Islam' or even wholly false from a muslim point of view. Muslims I know regularly comment with anger and dismay about these extremists twisting of their faith. They are seen as deviants.

I do not see that a young muslim student (such as those I regularly come into contact with) should have to apologise to me for/express disapproval of the actions of muslim extremists, any more than I think a male friend should have apologise/express disgust to me everytime some rapist turns up in the headlines. I do not believe any left leaning friends should have to loudly and publically express disgust for the excesses of Stalin and Mao. I hardly view Stalin or Mao as 'liberals' in the first place. Perhaps as a Westerner I was suppose to express disapproval and outrage to Koreans everytime some Western criminal or loon committed a killing of a Korean? No way. I would consider it insulting that they somehow believed I had a duty to do so.

Quote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Is it supposed to be printed in the paper every day? There are several large muslim organisations in Britain who publically denounce this kind of stuff.

There we go again. Britain. I thought I made it fairly clear that my suggestion applied primarily to the Muslim World. If Koreans can find it within themselves to buy whole page ads in the New York Times about 독도 and 비빔밥, I don't think it's beyond the denizens of Muslim countries to pick up the volume in this regard, especially if they care about the image of their religion around the world. If, on the other hand, they simply don't care about the image of their religion that is forming, well, they've really no basis for complaint about comics like this one.

So which is it? Do they care about the image of Islam in the West or not? If not, this comic should be irrelevent to them. If they do, then they've got some work to do to improve it.

The leaders of muslim countries have regularly spoken out against extremists. Many muslim countries assisted the US with their 'war on terror' happily accepting captured suspects to torture. The authorities in these countries are quite used to gaoling and torturing muslim extremists. They are hardly applauding them.

Those that do fund them (like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) often do for political reasons - and the US has done its fair share of lending aid and support to such militias when they thought it was expedient. Right now in Afghanistan, the US choses to back the Warlords - most of whom were similar to the Taliban and who had helped import and impose a horrible fundamentalist Islam on Afghanistan. Western governments are backing these guys when it suits them.

Quote:

Big_Bird wrote:

And here you show yourself to be very uninformed. I've often heard my Libyan friends say that one good thing about Qadaffi (who they otherwise dislike) is that he doesn't tolerate religious extremists operating in Libya.

So because one of your Libyan friends made a comment about the Libyan government, I'm uninformed about dozens of countries across the world?

Libya is just one example, used as a reminder. I assumed you were very aware that extremism is suppressed by the authorities in most muslim countries - for the quite simple reason that they represent a threat to the status quo. Perhaps I need to spell things out better, but I don't have time to write long essays. Perhaps it's best I don't participate right now.

Quote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Bullshit. I'm not interested in coming to this little obscure message board to push a point of view.

And yet, you're doing it.

Whatever that means.

Anyway, my exchanges with you remind me why I don't post here too often. I end up in long unconstructive exchanges with unmarried childless men who have much time on their hands, and I shouldn't be wasting the time my kids are in childcare doing this stuff. I should in fact be revising for an important exam. So I'll just bow out and come back here to read some of the interesting posts that appear from time to time.

If anyone wants to address the issue that's great, but don't bother to address me. I just can't afford the time right now.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject:

To my friend who keeps messaging me on FB chat - every time I see I have a chat pop up, I look and but you've already logged out!

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Absolute. All kinds of dogs, Kimbop.

If you play with fire, and the fire burns you, it is not really the fire's fault -- especially if you are an adult and should know better.

Sure, you certainly have the right to play with fire all you like. But please do not whine about it when it burns you.

I'm not sure that I understand you: We control fire. We can pee on it. We control dogs. We "correct" them. Fire that burns people and dogs that bite are unacceptable. They will not be tolerated. Similarly, concepts such as freedom/human rights/gender equality etc are also unalienable, and any entity that tries to subvert these will not be tolerated. Even if they are willing to kill and there are 1.5 billion of them -- it doesn't matter. It wont be tolerated. If it means my life, so be it. It wont be tolerated. The side of freedom/human rights/gender equality will always win against fire, biting dogs or islamofascists, as long as Gophers don't capitulate. D-day cost us, and this battle will cost us too.

(Fire is supposed to burn. Pets aren;t supposed to attack pink. Humans aren;t supposed to subjugate women, get angry over cartoons, etc)

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject:

Excellent. And when you move against fires that burn people do you prefer to add fuel to the fire or do you respond some other way...?

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

If you play with fire, and the fire burns you, it is not really the fire's fault -- especially if you are an adult and should know better.

Sure, you certainly have the right to play with fire all you like. But please do not whine about it when it burns you.

Here we go again, treating Muslim violence like a simple, unavoidable fact of reality rather than the action of thinking human beings. Imagine if a conservative political cartoonist took some jab at Obama, and liberals riotted and murdered him. Would you say, "Oh, he shouldn't have played with fire," Gopher? No, you'd have condemned the liberals for being violent monsters.

Same applies.

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Excellent.

And when you move against fires that burn people do you prefer to add fuel to the fire or do you respond some other way...?

Ever poured water on a bbq?

Capitulating to the demands of islamofascists is fuel for their fire, which is burning down a slippery slope.

A mohammed cartoon threatens the fiery idea of islamofacsism: capitulating fuels it. Alternatively, let's pour some water on this idea, and watch the nutcases get angry. They'll eventually stop showing up.

Please admit it, Gopher: allowing this fire to burn is a disservice to humanity. Let's put it out with some zero tolerance. It'll be a tough fight, but Kimbop and every other gun-owning American is with me! (Heck, even some wimpy Europeans are with me!) Are you??

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

You seem to see Islamic world as one monolithic mass, rather than a collection of 1.3 billion individuals ...

No, I don't. However, those 1.3 billion individuals share an overall ideology. If those 1.3 billion people are content to let a minority of loud, violent extremists define Islam in the public view, then fine. Islam will be hated, Islam will be mocked, and that will be life. If they don't care about that, then they can continue doing what they're doing.

If they want Islam to be viewed positively though -- and I think they do -- they need to work to improve it's image. So no, Islam isn't some monolithic mass, but it still is an over-reaching ideology, and the ideology itself can and will be judged.

It's really that simple. If they don't care about how Islam is viewed around the world, then you're right, they have no need to speak up, and can continue living their lives while extremist Muslims continue to define the religion in the eye of the non-Muslim world. If they do care, though, they need to start combatting said extremists much more effectively.

You talk about nonsense like apologies, but I'm not asking for an apology from anyone. I'm saying that, very clearly, Islam has been defined in the Western eye by loud extremists, and if Muslims don't like it, it's their responsibility to act to change it. Until they do act to change it, criticisms like the cartoon in the original post remain totally valid.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
Page 5 of 6

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe