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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Europe doesn't have to be multicultural, and arguably it shouldn't be. |
Well, the past century or twenty has certainly shown that Europe isn't very welcoming of other cultures, so it really shouldn't be suprising that things like this continue to happen. If France wants to come off as bigotted to the rest of the world, that's their deal. Heck, it makes my life easier as an American in Korea, as it's one more thing I can throw back at the ludicrous anti-American rants that always seem to rear their heads at social functions. |
What's this ignorant Yankish insistence on seeing Europe as being a single monolithic culture? "Europeans this, Europeans that, Europe this, Europe that" We're not all the same, there are over 30 nations with long and differing histories 
Also with regards to attitudes to other cultures Americans are truly enlightened. No ignorance or bigotry to be seen. USA! USA! |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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A mime in a burqa.
Acceptable? Yes or no.
Any Frenchies out there I'd love to hear your opinions as well. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
| What's this ignorant Yankish insistence on seeing Europe as being a single monolithic culture? "Europeans this, Europeans that, Europe this, Europe that" We're not all the same, there are over 30 nations with long and differing histories |
I'm fairly certain if you reread my comment top-to-bottom you'll see that the implications work the same way. Europe has a long history of intolerance, and France is keeping that tradition alive. Also, that, though it was admittedly dry, should have been read somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
| Quote: |
| Also with regards to attitudes to other cultures Americans are truly enlightened. No ignorance or bigotry to be seen. USA! USA! |
I'm glad you understand. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
| What's this ignorant Yankish insistence on seeing Europe as being a single monolithic culture? "Europeans this, Europeans that, Europe this, Europe that" We're not all the same, there are over 30 nations with long and differing histories |
I'm fairly certain if you reread my comment top-to-bottom you'll see that the implications work the same way. Europe has a long history of intolerance, and France is keeping that tradition alive. Also, that, though it was admittedly dry, should have been read somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
| Quote: |
| Also with regards to attitudes to other cultures Americans are truly enlightened. No ignorance or bigotry to be seen. USA! USA! |
I'm glad you understand. |
I suspect we're talking past each other here, so my apologies. I don't necessarily see France's actions as being intolerant so much as over-defensive. You go to some of these places and it's pretty clear some Muslims want nothing to do with us except partake of the wider affluence and then bitch and moan about decadent Westerners.
Also secularism is pretty deeply entrenched in the French body politic and society beginning from 1789. It is the path that society took and they can defend it how they like. Are they to throw over their own history and traditions to appease relatively recently arrived minorities?
I also think New Worlders need to understand that the various European cultures have their own societies and cultures that have evolved since way before the Americas were discovered, and as such relative newcomers who come to these societies and then don't wish to engage (and some cases seek to undermine and destroy) with these societies upsets people. Hell even the Dutch are taking a lurch to the anti-immigrant right-wing.
I think too many New Worlders lack this understanding that we are talking about long established socieites and cultures whose collective memories can be traced back at least 2500 years. None of this people just turning up on a piece of land 300-400 years ago, butchering the natives and founding a state over their corpses, essentially having a clean slate to play with.
Likewise with dryness and tongue-in-cheek, that is also how my USA! comment is to be read. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
[
I think too many New Worlders lack this understanding that we are talking about long established socieites and cultures whose collective memories can be traced back at least 2500 years. None of this people just turning up on a piece of land 300-400 years ago, butchering the natives and founding a state over their corpses, essentially having a clean slate to play with.
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I believe said people were Europeans? |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
I also think New Worlders need to understand that the various European cultures have their own societies and cultures that have evolved since way before the Americas were discovered, and as such relative newcomers who come to these societies and then don't wish to engage (and some cases seek to undermine and destroy) with these societies upsets people. Hell even the Dutch are taking a lurch to the anti-immigrant right-wing.
I think too many New Worlders lack this understanding that we are talking about long established socieites and cultures whose collective memories can be traced back at least 2500 years. None of this people just turning up on a piece of land 300-400 years ago, butchering the natives and founding a state over their corpses, essentially having a clean slate to play with. |
WTF? This is almost precisely what I was trying to argue in the other thread. And I got jumped on for the detail that England is distinct from the rest of Europe. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
I also think New Worlders need to understand that the various European cultures have their own societies and cultures that have evolved since way before the Americas were discovered, and as such relative newcomers who come to these societies and then don't wish to engage (and some cases seek to undermine and destroy) with these societies upsets people. Hell even the Dutch are taking a lurch to the anti-immigrant right-wing.
I think too many New Worlders lack this understanding that we are talking about long established socieites and cultures whose collective memories can be traced back at least 2500 years. None of this people just turning up on a piece of land 300-400 years ago, butchering the natives and founding a state over their corpses, essentially having a clean slate to play with. |
WTF? This is almost precisely what I was trying to argue in the other thread. And I got jumped on for the detail that England is distinct from the rest of Europe. |
Oh? Not sure I recall the thread in question. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
[
I think too many New Worlders lack this understanding that we are talking about long established socieites and cultures whose collective memories can be traced back at least 2500 years. None of this people just turning up on a piece of land 300-400 years ago, butchering the natives and founding a state over their corpses, essentially having a clean slate to play with.
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I believe said people were Europeans? |
Aye the ones who arrived at the time were. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_a-25MhRuk
Uh. Europe won't survive? Europe won't be Europe. Ah. I guess it is just a thing to be meddled with. Not a home.
I sincerely hope the French veil move is the first in a long line of measures to protect the identity and demography of France. |
She's a moron (the woman in the vid.) There has never been a 'monolithic' Europe. Whatever the hell that is actually supposed to mean anyway. And the Jews have always had their hand in many leading industries, notably banking, publishing, finance etc.
The internet is awash with pure uninformed moronity and it makes me sick. Reminds me of the term Martin Amis used once 'The Moronic Inferno.' |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Europe doesn't have to be multicultural, and arguably it shouldn't be. |
Well, the past century or twenty has certainly shown that Europe isn't very welcoming of other cultures, so it really shouldn't be suprising that things like this continue to happen. If France wants to come off as bigotted to the rest of the world, that's their deal. Heck, it makes my life easier as an American in Korea, as it's one more thing I can throw back at the ludicrous anti-American rants that always seem to rear their heads at social functions. |
Oh yeah I can see it now.
Korean principle. Korean eat Gimchi. America not the gentleman.
Gelded Goat. Huh, the US? You should see the French they blah blah blah
Korean Principal. I don't know. You like the soju? Korean like the soju, why you so much fatly these days.... |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
recessiontime wrote:
As I mentioned before in other threads and this one, banning the head scarf doesn't really accomplish anything except an erosion of civil liberties. |
What would you call it were I refused a bacon sarnie and a pint if I lived in Saudi Arabia? |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
"You're either being forced to wear a veil, or you've been brainwashed into thinking it's a good idea... either way, banning it liberates you!"
Thanks Oceania, I mean France.
I saw a poll saying that 2/3s of Americans would oppose a similar ban. Glad to know it's still the home of the free. Free to build a mosque wherever you buy land, free to burn paper with ridiculous writing on it, and free to wear whatever you like.
Ah mi patria, mi amor. |
Not to be incidientry, but which year was it again when Portland Int airport wasn't allowed to put up a Christmas tree as it would offend the muzzies? And why do you have to say 'holidays' now instead of just calling them 'Easter' or 'Christmas.' What's that other thing called... Ah gitmo... Patriot what? Oh act, that's right... The bush family literally stealing the presidency... ah of course in the land of the free they are free to do that... Macarthywhatism..?
And of course, farmers there aren't even allowed to clean seeds and plant them or propagate or distribute any seeds not owned by monsanto because America is the land of the , oh dash.... Yes a corporation now owns something like 99% of all the seeds in the USA.
OWNS SEEDS.
Seriously wtf?
Fromt the link - http://www.newfrontier.com/asheville/bad_seed.htm
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because genetically modified seeds are patented, it is illegal for a farmer to retain seed from this year's crop to plant next year.
To use these patented seeds, farmers must buy new seeds from Monsanto every year. Thus, a farmer who adopts genetically modified seeds and fails to retain a stock of traditional seeds could become dependent upon a transnational corporation.
Nations, whose farmers are dependent upon corporations for seed, might forfeit considerable political independence. The Clinton/Gore administration has been aggressively helping Monsanto promote new, untested gene-altered products, by-passing U.S. health and safety regulations. |
Please remove blinkers. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotwire wrote: |
Not to be incidientry, but which year was it again when Portland Int airport wasn't allowed to put up a Christmas tree as it would offend the muzzies? And why do you have to say 'holidays' now instead of just calling them 'Easter' or 'Christmas.'
And of course, farmers there aren't even allowed to clean seeds and plant them or propagate or distribute any seeds not owned by monsanto because America is the land of the , oh dash.... Yes a corporation now owns something like 99% of all the seeds in the USA.
OWNS SEEDS.
Seriously wtf?
Please remove blinkers. |
Let's start at the bottom I guess... If I spend $10 mil developing genetically modified seeds, I'll patent them and make a profit from every crop, rather than selling 1 seed and seeing that passed along to EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. If a farmer chooses to use traditional seeds, that's their prerogative (which is common where I'm from in western Virginia).
I believe Portland Int. Airport is largely publicly funded and shouldn't be a showcase for religious symbols of any kind. If you buy your own land and put up a huge cross, that's your deal, but don't take my money to buy religious junk. Another personal note here: some D-bag living near me bought all the land on a small mountain and after being forced to remove a brightly lit cross at the top, clear cut the trees in the shape of a cross. This made the barren land visible from quite a distance away. Again, this is his property and he can do as he likes.
You don't "have to" say happy holidays instead of merry Christmas, it's just more polite. The US isn't the kind of place that makes laws against religious commentary or greetings (when conducted by a private citizen who is not at the time acting as a gov't representative, and who is not using public funds to do so). If people use their free speech to call you names because of your religious greetings (hell, even over your religion itself) that's something you have to deal with. Call them a few names back and take some bloodpressure pills.
As for Gitmo: There are constitutional protections for citizens of the US. My understanding is that the judicial branch has pressed pretty hard to ensure the continuation of that. If that has failed, other measures can and will be taken by citizens to ensure it. With regard to non-citizens, I'm in favor of the Geneva Convention, but the citizens of other nations aren't my top priority.
Perhaps I should clarify: The US is the place for MY kind of freedom. Citizens are permitted to do as they like, so long as it doesn't actively harm others (yelling fire in a theater) or use public funds for activities which the government is prevented from engaging in (display of religious symbols). Companies are free to make money for their patents, on seeds or otherwise. Farmers are free to use crappy old seed lines OR pay companies for their genetically improved seeds. Religious fools are free to build mosques anywhere they buy land, and other religious fools are free to burn books they have legally purchased. |
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