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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| This thread is not about school leaving age but how much we as a society should invest in the education of our children. It angers me that there are so many who care so little about their country that they can jeer while its education system goes down the toilet. For David Cameron to be able to exclude so many from university education shows that he has no conscience and no patriotism. |
If the best you can manage with your university education is peddling TEFL, then all the justification in the world for reforming education is right there in the mirror.
Funny how those to benefit least by the system are often those quickest to leap to its defence |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| This thread is not about school leaving age but how much we as a society should invest in the education of our children. It angers me that there are so many who care so little about their country that they can jeer while its education system goes down the toilet. For David Cameron to be able to exclude so many from university education shows that he has no conscience and no patriotism. |
There is no "we as a society" (even though you've no doubt been taught this all your life). In reality there's only you, me, and a whole bunch of of other individuals, each of whom are responsible for their own lives and decisions. Nobody is entitled to another person's money, or for anything except their own fundamental liberties. To treat everyone as a collective (no matter how well-intentioned) is an affront to human dignity. |
hell yes. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
So you spent 13 years in school for about 7 hours or so a day and learned zilch. Either you learned hyperbole or maybe the student is to blame rather than the teachers. Also if you are posting here I have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you attended college and value education to some degree. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| This thread is not about school leaving age but how much we as a society should invest in the education of our children. It angers me that there are so many who care so little about their country that they can jeer while its education system goes down the toilet. For David Cameron to be able to exclude so many from university education shows that he has no conscience and no patriotism. |
There is no "we as a society" (even though you've no doubt been taught this all your life). In reality there's only you, me, and a whole bunch of of other individuals, each of whom are responsible for their own lives and decisions. Nobody is entitled to another person's money, or for anything except their own fundamental liberties. To treat everyone as a collective (no matter how well-intentioned) is an affront to human dignity. |
hell yes. |
Ignorance, and ignorance cheered on. There is no society, hahahahahaha wow. Regardless of what your political beliefs are to deny that we are all strongly interconnected is to ignore whats in front of you. Oh wait, don't tell me society is a socialist construct. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
So you spent 13 years in school for about 7 hours or so a day and learned zilch. Either you learned hyperbole or maybe the student is to blame rather than the teachers. Also if you are posting here I have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you attended college and value education to some degree. |
Yeah, 13 years, of which 95% was a complete waste of time academically. I learned nearly everything I needed for SATs at home, on my own time. I honestly believe if I had been home-schooled (spending far more of that 7 hrs/day actually learning) I would have been far more advanced by senior year.
As for university, that was a personal choice I made (paid for by myself). The most I've gotten out of my degree is the ability to work overseas (for visa purposes). Other than that, not really useful at all (I now have a business of my own, for which my university degree is irrelevant). If had planned on adopting a trade for a career (or getting some menial job) instead of going to university, it would have been even more a waste of time.
| Quote: |
| Ignorance, and ignorance cheered on. There is no society, hahahahahaha wow. Regardless of what your political beliefs are to deny that we are all strongly interconnected is to ignore whats in front of you. Oh wait, don't tell me society is a socialist construct. |
Anyone who uses the word 'ignorance' and 'hahaha' in the same sentence is obviously fooling himself. More than that, you're just plain full of it. We are not "all" strongly interconnected. We have friends and family and sometimes we live in communities. Beyond that, yes your collectivist notion of "society" is nothing more than a socialist construct. The fact that you actually presume to speak for "society" (surprised you haven't referred to it as a moral majority yet) is what's really laughable. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
So you spent 13 years in school for about 7 hours or so a day and learned zilch. Either you learned hyperbole or maybe the student is to blame rather than the teachers. Also if you are posting here I have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you attended college and value education to some degree. |
Yeah, the first 13 years, of which 95% was a complete waste of time academically. I learned nearly everything I needed for SATs at home, on my own time. I honestly believe if I had been home-schooled (spending far more of that 7 hrs/day actually learning) I would have been far more advanced by senior year.
As for university, that was a personal choice I made (paid for by myself). The most I've gotten out of my degree is the ability to work overseas (for visa purposes). Other than that, not really useful at all (I now have a business of my own, for which my university degree is irrelevant). If had planned on adopting a trade for a career (or getting some menial job) instead of going to university, it would have been even more a waste of time.
| Quote: |
| Ignorance, and ignorance cheered on. There is no society, hahahahahaha wow. Regardless of what your political beliefs are to deny that we are all strongly interconnected is to ignore whats in front of you. Oh wait, don't tell me society is a socialist construct. |
Anyone who uses the word 'ignorance' and 'hahaha' in the same sentence is obviously fooling himself. More than that, you're just plain full of it. We are not "all" strongly interconnected. We have friends and family and sometimes we live in communities. Beyond that, yes your collectivist notion of "society" is nothing more than a socialist construct. The fact that you actually presume to speak for "society" (surprised you haven't referred to it as a moral majority yet) is what's really laughable. |
Did the economic crash effect you? Does war effect you? Exchange rates? Personal security? How about the fact that you live in a first world society as opposed to a third world one? I don't speak for society, there is no moral majority, but I don't deny society's existence. If you don't recognize that other peoples actions on a large scale affect your life in major ways then your ignorant, and seemingly willfully so. Socialist construct, you think if you throw enough buzzwords at something it will disappear. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
So you spent 13 years in school for about 7 hours or so a day and learned zilch. Either you learned hyperbole or maybe the student is to blame rather than the teachers. Also if you are posting here I have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you attended college and value education to some degree. |
Yeah, the first 13 years, of which 95% was a complete waste of time academically. I learned nearly everything I needed for SATs at home, on my own time. I honestly believe if I had been home-schooled (spending far more of that 7 hrs/day actually learning) I would have been far more advanced by senior year.
As for university, that was a personal choice I made (paid for by myself). The most I've gotten out of my degree is the ability to work overseas (for visa purposes). Other than that, not really useful at all (I now have a business of my own, for which my university degree is irrelevant). If had planned on adopting a trade for a career (or getting some menial job) instead of going to university, it would have been even more a waste of time.
| Quote: |
| Ignorance, and ignorance cheered on. There is no society, hahahahahaha wow. Regardless of what your political beliefs are to deny that we are all strongly interconnected is to ignore whats in front of you. Oh wait, don't tell me society is a socialist construct. |
Anyone who uses the word 'ignorance' and 'hahaha' in the same sentence is obviously fooling himself. More than that, you're just plain full of it. We are not "all" strongly interconnected. We have friends and family and sometimes we live in communities. Beyond that, yes your collectivist notion of "society" is nothing more than a socialist construct. The fact that you actually presume to speak for "society" (surprised you haven't referred to it as a moral majority yet) is what's really laughable. |
Did the economic crash effect you? Does war effect you? Exchange rates? Personal security? How about the fact that you live in a first world society as opposed to a third world one? |
None of the above = "we as a society". We are not a nest of termites working selflessly for the collective. Rather we are free to make our own decisions. Obviously the decisions/actions taken by many other individuals will no doubt affect you, but ultimately you are still responsible for your own life. The "we" you speak of simply does not exist; it is a figment of your imagination. Again, you are the confused one here, not me.
| Quote: |
| I don't speak for society, there is no moral majority, but I don't deny society's existence. If you don't recognize that other peoples actions on a large scale affect your life in major ways then your ignorant, and seemingly willfully so. Socialist construct, you think if you throw enough buzzwords at something it will disappear. |
You don't even know what you're talking about, so I don't think there's anything more to address here... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
So you spent 13 years in school for about 7 hours or so a day and learned zilch. Either you learned hyperbole or maybe the student is to blame rather than the teachers. Also if you are posting here I have to give you the benefit of the doubt that you attended college and value education to some degree. |
Yeah, the first 13 years, of which 95% was a complete waste of time academically. I learned nearly everything I needed for SATs at home, on my own time. I honestly believe if I had been home-schooled (spending far more of that 7 hrs/day actually learning) I would have been far more advanced by senior year.
As for university, that was a personal choice I made (paid for by myself). The most I've gotten out of my degree is the ability to work overseas (for visa purposes). Other than that, not really useful at all (I now have a business of my own, for which my university degree is irrelevant). If had planned on adopting a trade for a career (or getting some menial job) instead of going to university, it would have been even more a waste of time.
| Quote: |
| Ignorance, and ignorance cheered on. There is no society, hahahahahaha wow. Regardless of what your political beliefs are to deny that we are all strongly interconnected is to ignore whats in front of you. Oh wait, don't tell me society is a socialist construct. |
Anyone who uses the word 'ignorance' and 'hahaha' in the same sentence is obviously fooling himself. More than that, you're just plain full of it. We are not "all" strongly interconnected. We have friends and family and sometimes we live in communities. Beyond that, yes your collectivist notion of "society" is nothing more than a socialist construct. The fact that you actually presume to speak for "society" (surprised you haven't referred to it as a moral majority yet) is what's really laughable. |
Did the economic crash effect you? Does war effect you? Exchange rates? Personal security? How about the fact that you live in a first world society as opposed to a third world one? |
None of the above = "we as a society". We are not a nest of termites working selflessly for the collective. Rather we are free to make our own decisions. Obviously the decisions/actions taken by many other individuals will no doubt affect you, but ultimately you are still responsible for your own life. The "we" you speak of simply does not exist; it is a figment of your imagination. Again, you are the confused one here, not me.
| Quote: |
| I don't speak for society, there is no moral majority, but I don't deny society's existence. If you don't recognize that other peoples actions on a large scale affect your life in major ways then your ignorant, and seemingly willfully so. Socialist construct, you think if you throw enough buzzwords at something it will disappear. |
You don't even know what you're talking about, so I don't think there's anything more to address here... |
You seem to be stuck in a cold war mindset where its black or white, or should I say red or white. Of course you are responsible for your own life but to deny that it is affected by others and to deny that people are closely connected is to deny the obvious. I know exactly what I'm talking about but you are viewing it through your ideology and making assumptions about things that aren't there. Where did I say that we were like a hive were we had to work together. Perhaps you read too much into the word "society" it isn't a loaded word unless you make it one. You may be the rugged individual type, but what happens because of other people affect you. Coming from a country that values education and had an educated work force affected your own success. Developed countries emphasize education, undeveloped ones don't or can't. You benefit from that common good, along with others such as a good health care system, a stable government, personal security. You are responsible for your own success, but you didn't just happen to get there on your own. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Leon, talking to ideologues and fundamentalists=waste of time. Now if you're killing time at your desk, plunge ahead! Otherwise I strongly encourage you to find better ways to spend your time.  |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon, talking to ideologues and fundamentalists=waste of time. Now if you're killing time at your desk, plunge ahead! Otherwise I strongly encourage you to find better ways to spend your time. |
Oh I know. Waiting for my laundry to finish so I can go to sleep. Plus there is a certain humor in it that I appreciate. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| You seem to be stuck in a cold war mindset where its black or white, or should I say red or white. |
Bunk.
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| Of course you are responsible for your own life but to deny that it is affected by others and to deny that people are closely connected is to deny the obvious. |
I never denied some of us are closely connected. The notion that we "all" are is completely idiotic and childish. I'm not closely connected to you, for example. You could be fired, evicted from your house, or get hit by a bus tomorrow and I would be none the wiser (nor would it affect me in any way)...
| Quote: |
| You may be the rugged individual type, but what happens because of other people affect you. Coming from a country that values education and had an educated work force affected your own success. Developed countries emphasize education, undeveloped ones don't or can't. You benefit from that common good, along with others such as a good health care system, a stable government, personal security. You are responsible for your own success, but you didn't just happen to get there on your own. |
More nonsense. I get where I'm going based on my own decisions. It doesn't mean I'm a self-sufficient hermit. I react to others around me. I befriend some, ignore others. Some I work with, some I trade with. Some I defend myself against. Ultimately we all live our own lives, in the midst of others'. The only "common good" is basic law and order, and fundamental liberties. Forcing other people to accept your socialist system of values (literally at gunpoint, in the case of socialist government) is immoral. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| You seem to be stuck in a cold war mindset where its black or white, or should I say red or white. |
Bunk. |
| visitorq wrote: |
| your socialist system of values is immoral. |
Tell me all about it McCarthy.
Last edited by Leon on Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon, talking to ideologues and fundamentalists=waste of time. Now if you're killing time at your desk, plunge ahead! Otherwise I strongly encourage you to find better ways to spend your time. |
You know perfectly well he has nothing better to do with his time. Neither do you, apparently.
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| Oh I know. Waiting for my laundry to finish so I can go to sleep. Plus there is a certain humor in it that I appreciate. |
Yeah, you certainly are a clever one. I bet you laugh at your own jokes too |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I think you guys are just talking past each other (if that weren't already obvious).
Visitorq and Recessiontime believe (I think) in a "society" which effects us, but which we are better off not trying to manipulate. As with the success of capitalism itself, a "society" is better built by the pursuit of happiness of each individual, rather than attempting to impose your view of how the collective should be advanced.
On the other hand, I think Leon and BB believe in a "society" in which we as individuals are responsible for the environment we interact with. Their "society" is a situation in which it's important to intentionally encourage positive conditions for those around you, thereby creating benefit for yourself. For example, the more potential inventors we train, the more useful inventions will be created.
Neither of these views is ridiculous (in fact, I'd consider them to be near prehistoric), so I don't expect us to reconcile them on this forum. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| The title of this thread is obnoxious. |
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