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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
Who cares? We are not 'back home' and western professors are not the boss of the educational world. What they do doesn't mean crap here,
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The OP already said that his students can get credit at an American university for this course. So in this case the western educational system (flawed or not) is very relevant.
I'm curious, do any of those universities set criteria for the course curriculum? i.e. did they design it or is it based on courses which they currently offer as well? If so, then the students should be treated and evaluated the same as the students taking the course in America. Do any of those universities offer certification for students (regardless of whether or not they transfer)? If so, then the system at those universities is even more relevant when the OP runs the course. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Pay no mind to superNET. His trolling tactic is to constantly instigate argument |
Yet I am not trolling and if you recall, Obama touts the Korean educational system over the western one, so I am in good company.
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| If she was helpless, as you claim, she wouldn't have been able to get 23 right |
Did I say she was helpless? NO, She got 23/25 correct, there is nothing wrong with helping firn the answers for the last two and avoided the whole problem the Op now complains about. I follow what I say, nd I have never had a student reaction like the OP had from a student and no lazy students. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
My ideas are better based upon my students' performances over the years and how much easier it gets to teach them when you work with them not against them by leaving them helpless when they are having a problem.
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You didn't call her helpless?
Why don't we just avoid the entire problem altogether and give them EVERY answer? 
My teachers never fed me answers, and I'm thankful that they didn't. The Korean system isn't better, nor is the western system. Both have aspects that could help the other. Koreans have a drive and ability in the hard sciences that is helped by the memorization-based teaching method. Western schools are great at the humanities. Both are important. The problem back home is that we need more of one, whereas here, they need more of the other. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
My ideas are better based upon my students' performances over the years and how much easier it gets to teach them when you work with them not against them by leaving them helpless when they are having a problem.
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You didn't call her helpless?
Why don't we just avoid the entire problem altogether and give them EVERY answer?
My teachers never fed me answers, and I'm thankful that they didn't. The Korean system isn't better, nor is the western system. Both have aspects that could help the other. Koreans have a drive and ability in the hard sciences that is helped by the memorization-based teaching method. Western schools are great at the humanities. Both are important. The problem back home is that we need more of one, whereas here, they need more of the other. |
Again, America does not solely represent the West. There are many other many Western countries (such as the Scandinavian countries if I am not mistaken) which do quite well in the sciences without resorting overzealously to rote-memorization. Further, much of the ground breaking scientific research is actually done in America (graduate education is still education and often involves doing a lot of research). In the case of Korea, I would argue that their heavy emphasis on rote-memorization, do as quickly as possible, top-down approach ultimately hurts them when doing scientific research. |
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livinginkorea
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Location: Korea, South of the border
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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The enterance exam for Korean public school teachers was changed a few years ago from memorization to more open-ended questions, specifically for the English part. This is because the government will change the style of education to reflect more on the western style where learner autonomy and independence is emphasised over route-learning. Think about our high school prose and poetry questions that we had to answer in class. That is what is going to happen to high school English in Korea in the near future.
I believe the OP was more or less correct, it depends naturally how he said it or displayed it to his student. If you focused on how such a good job she did and that the two wrong answers could be found here in the textbook then her outburst is uncalled for. If however, the OP said it's not good enough, two wrong answers, look them up yourself, etc then her outburst would be understandable.
I have taught teachers for a couple of years and they do whine more than any other department. Anybody who teaches education or TESOL will understand what I mean. I think it is to do with the fact that most of them are teachers themselves and care about teaching. You have to be as professional as possible but you must care about the students too (at least show that you care - this is very important). However, if you give one student too much help then others will want it too. Once you make it easy for one student then you have to do the same for all. Teachers get such rough treatment from all sides - parents, students, government, press, etc that you have to stand by your professional standards as much as possible. Lowering your standards as an educators does not raise your students' education but you must be careful about how this is represented in your classroom.
Perhaps you could go over the answers in class with everyone next time. By doing this you can at least make sure everyone is on the same page and avoid this situation next time.
BTW where do you teach? I have taught TESOL for a couple of years now (cert. and MA level) so let me know if you have any questions. Teaching TESOL at a graduate level is a total different ball game than teaching EFL, which I think some posters have failed to grasp. Your approach has to be different. |
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livinginkorea
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Location: Korea, South of the border
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
My ideas are better based upon my students' performances over the years and how much easier it gets to teach them when you work with them not against them by leaving them helpless when they are having a problem.
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You didn't call her helpless?
Why don't we just avoid the entire problem altogether and give them EVERY answer?
My teachers never fed me answers, and I'm thankful that they didn't. The Korean system isn't better, nor is the western system. Both have aspects that could help the other. Koreans have a drive and ability in the hard sciences that is helped by the memorization-based teaching method. Western schools are great at the humanities. Both are important. The problem back home is that we need more of one, whereas here, they need more of the other. |
Again, America does not solely represent the West. There are many other many Western countries (such as the Scandinavian countries if I am not mistaken) which do quite well in the sciences without resorting overzealously to rote-memorization. Further, much of the ground breaking scientific research is actually done in America (graduate education is still education and often involves doing a lot of research). In the case of Korea, I would argue that their heavy emphasis on rote-memorization, do as quickly as possible, top-down approach ultimately hurts them when doing scientific research. |
I am currently reading a very interesting paper by Susan J. Paik [(2001) Introduction, background, and international perspectives: Korean history, culture, and education. International Journal of Educational Research, 35, 535-607.] and she states that although Koreans score very well on maths in comparison with other countries, that 'none of the world�s famous mathematicians have come from Korea.'
An interesting quote which can of course be debated but does display the preceived strength of memorization and lack of creativity in the education system in Korea. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
My ideas are better based upon my students' performances over the years and how much easier it gets to teach them when you work with them not against them by leaving them helpless when they are having a problem.
|
You didn't call her helpless?
Why don't we just avoid the entire problem altogether and give them EVERY answer?
My teachers never fed me answers, and I'm thankful that they didn't. The Korean system isn't better, nor is the western system. Both have aspects that could help the other. Koreans have a drive and ability in the hard sciences that is helped by the memorization-based teaching method. Western schools are great at the humanities. Both are important. The problem back home is that we need more of one, whereas here, they need more of the other. |
Again, America does not solely represent the West. There are many other many Western countries (such as the Scandinavian countries if I am not mistaken) which do quite well in the sciences without resorting overzealously to rote-memorization. Further, much of the ground breaking scientific research is actually done in America (graduate education is still education and often involves doing a lot of research). In the case of Korea, I would argue that their heavy emphasis on rote-memorization, do as quickly as possible, top-down approach ultimately hurts them when doing scientific research. |
Agreed. I don't want to come off as a cultural elitist, though. There are some merits to memorization IN ADDITION to the western (not only America�I just use my upbringing as an example) methodology. I used to have memorization drills every week (by my mom) for spelling and basic math ON TOP of my regular studies.
EDIT: There's a lot to be said about the drive for education, here, no matter how many issues I have with the technique. My parents were pretty tough, but I had quite a few friends with lax parents who let them play outside far more than I could, what with after-school private lessons, studying, and piano practice. Also Saturday morning piano lessons. I missed Pee Wee Herman EVERY SATURDAY! I resented my parents at the time, but they were only trying to give me an advantage. It doesn't seem to be the case for many back home (in America, at least). My mom teaches middle school science, and has to endure parents who don't care at all (therefore their children don't care) on a constant basis. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Lowering your standards as an educators does not raise your students' education but you must be careful about how this is represented in your classroom.
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So you are saying that helping students (a teacher's job) is lowering one's standards? I'll stick to my way as it is far better than anyone else's. Makig sure students can find the answers, and know how to do it, is far more important than some 'western subjective standard'
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| Once you make it easy for one student then you have to do the same for all. |
Who said anything about making it easy? Stop doing eisigesis (reading into a passage) and see what people are saying. SO you have to do it for all, that is your job as a teacher, you find those who don't need the extra help, and give more time to those who do. What an excuse to not do your duty.
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I am currently reading a very interesting paper by Susan J. Paik [(2001) Introduction, background, and international perspectives: Korean history, culture, and education. International Journal of Educational Research, 35, 535-607.] and she states that although Koreans score very well on maths in comparison with other countries, that 'none of the world�s famous mathematicians have come from Korea.'
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SO? This means absolutely nothing. A person does NOT have to be world famous to do math and do it at a superior level. That author has no clue, the ancient Babylonians did not have 'world famous mathematicians' either yet they had the Pythagoreum Theorum 2,000 years before Pythagorus.
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| This is because the government will change the style of education to reflect more on the western style |
Tis is a grave mistake as the only success the western style has had in education over the past 30 years is to dumb down their students. Some of their 'shining' examples teach in this country and I have met them through open classes and other venes. It is an embarrasment to have them considered teachers when they are not even smart enough to tie their shoes. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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SuperNET,
He did help her. He told her where she could find the answers. Giving her the answers isn't helping her. It's spoon feeding her. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
My ideas are better based upon my students' performances over the years and how much easier it gets to teach them when you work with them not against them by leaving them helpless when they are having a problem.
|
You didn't call her helpless?
Why don't we just avoid the entire problem altogether and give them EVERY answer?
My teachers never fed me answers, and I'm thankful that they didn't. The Korean system isn't better, nor is the western system. Both have aspects that could help the other. Koreans have a drive and ability in the hard sciences that is helped by the memorization-based teaching method. Western schools are great at the humanities. Both are important. The problem back home is that we need more of one, whereas here, they need more of the other. |
Again, America does not solely represent the West. There are many other many Western countries (such as the Scandinavian countries if I am not mistaken) which do quite well in the sciences without resorting overzealously to rote-memorization. Further, much of the ground breaking scientific research is actually done in America (graduate education is still education and often involves doing a lot of research). In the case of Korea, I would argue that their heavy emphasis on rote-memorization, do as quickly as possible, top-down approach ultimately hurts them when doing scientific research. |
Agreed. I don't want to come off as a cultural elitist, though. There are some merits to memorization IN ADDITION to the western (not only America�I just use my upbringing as an example) methodology. I used to have memorization drills every week (by my mom) for spelling and basic math ON TOP of my regular studies.
EDIT: There's a lot to be said about the drive for education, here, no matter how many issues I have with the technique. My parents were pretty tough, but I had quite a few friends with lax parents who let them play outside far more than I could, what with after-school private lessons, studying, and piano practice. Also Saturday morning piano lessons. I missed Pee Wee Herman EVERY SATURDAY! I resented my parents at the time, but they were only trying to give me an advantage. It doesn't seem to be the case for many back home (in America, at least). My mom teaches middle school science, and has to endure parents who don't care at all (therefore their children don't care) on a constant basis. |
Oh, I agree with you on that point. I think that Korea is doing as well as it is due to its ambition despite all of its problems in its education system.
And in America, its more of a cultural problem (namely the anti-intellectual streak that we have running through our culture), but once people get to college and have a little time to mature, then it does become a whole different ball game as we both know.
But of course, at the same time, in America, a lot of people do respect education (even if they are a minority numbers wise; I am not referencing race). In my case, my father had created his own little library in our house. Whenever I had a question or was just curious about something, I could pick up a book and read about the Russian revolution, calculus, Einstein, etc. And of course, my father and I would often (and still do) have some interesting discussions regarding such topics. |
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livinginkorea
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Location: Korea, South of the border
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="NYC_Gal 2.0"]SuperNET,
He did help her. He told her where she could find the answers. Giving her the answers isn't helping her. It's spoon feeding her.[/quote]
I think this is the point that s/he is missing. However, we will not know how exactly it was presented by the OP to the student but my approach generally for graduate level students is to develop their critical thinking skills. That can only be developed by reducing the amount of spoon-feeding done. Bloom's Taxonomy for Thinking is very useful and also builds up students' confidence. |
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livinginkorea
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Location: Korea, South of the border
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
| Quote: |
Lowering your standards as an educators does not raise your students' education but you must be careful about how this is represented in your classroom.
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So you are saying that helping students (a teacher's job) is lowering one's standards? I'll stick to my way as it is far better than anyone else's. Makig sure students can find the answers, and know how to do it, is far more important than some 'western subjective standard'
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I stopped reading your post after this arrogrant and self righteous spittle. I assume that you have qualifications to support these impressive and humble claims?  |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| I stopped reading your post after this arrogrant and self righteous spittle. I assume that you have qualifications to support these impressive and humble claims |
The only thing that can be said to this garbage is: the pot calling the kettle black.
| Quote: |
| have taught teachers for a couple of years and they do whine more than any other department. Anybody who teaches education or TESOL will understand what I mean. |
| Quote: |
| I have taught TESOL for a couple of years now (cert. and MA level) so let me know if you have any questions. Teaching TESOL at a graduate level is a total different ball game than teaching EFL, which I think some posters have failed to grasp. Your approach has to be different. |
Talk about arogant and self-righteous. Those of us who have found the correct way to teach, are not arrogant or self-righteous especially when people like you spout off and say nothing of value or importance.
You quote someone who uses world wide fame as a measuring stick, what a laugh that was. You insult an entire nation withut even questioning the reason why that is, or even considering the fact of prejudice and bias would play a part in that lack of recognition.
It isno wonder YOUR students whine and complain, you do not know what you are talking about. The teachers I have taught, have NEVER whined and complained. They know what they must do.
Clearly there is a problem in your approach to teaching and your 'curriculum'. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
SuperNET,
He did help her. He told her where she could find the answers. Giving her the answers isn't helping her. It's spoon feeding her. |
Bump |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| Youre not going to sway supernet. He has a terminal case of stockholm syndrome. |
| livinginkorea wrote: |
I have taught TESOL for a couple of years now (cert. and MA level) so let me know if you have any questions. Teaching TESOL at a graduate level is a total different ball game than teaching EFL, which I think some posters have failed to grasp. Your approach has to be different. |
| superNet wrote: |
Talk about arogant and self-righteous. Those of us who have found the correct way to teach, are not arrogant or self-righteous especially when people like you spout off and say nothing of value or importance.
You quote someone who uses world wide fame as a measuring stick, what a laugh that was. You insult an entire nation withut even questioning the reason why that is, or even considering the fact of prejudice and bias would play a part in that lack of recognition.
It isno wonder YOUR students whine and complain, you do not know what you are talking about. The teachers I have taught, have NEVER whined and complained. They know what they must do.
Clearly there is a problem in your approach to teaching and your 'curriculum'. |
I guess I should also add delusions of grandeur with a healthy of side of narcissism....
BTW superNet, livinginkorea put his credentials and experience on the table to lend some credibility to his ideas about teaching. We're still waiting, even after he asked you many posts ago, for you to tell us what training, credentials and experience you have that makes your way "far better than anyone else's." |
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