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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Poltergeist wrote: |
| I'm not responsible for the title of the thread--that was TUM's idea.." |
If I am not mistaken this thread came about as an offshoot of another thread where people were talking about the lack of iron in a plant-based diet. I would say that falls under the umbrella term "healthy". |
Yes, a very broad umbrella that could also cover smoking, drinking, coffee drinking and cocaine use ... The original focus of the conversation was much narrower and centered specifically on iron. |
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Cedar
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Location: In front of my computer, again.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I became vegetarian when I was 10. In the 30 years since I have been extremely healthy, most of the time, and when unhealthy it has little to do with my diet.
I was completely vegan (not even honey vegan) for four years in the early 90s. Shortly before I moved to Korea I resumed eating seafood only. I have kept to this diet (non-dairy, yes seafood, no meat) for over 15 years now and it works great for me. I don't eat a lot of seafood, but I don't need to sweat the various ways seafood creeps into Korean foods such as kimchi and I can go out to eat without awkwardness (usually).
I don't supplement (intentionally, as mentioned there are vitamin fortified products out there).
But I don't think my diet would work for everyone. (It wouldn't even for my meat loving husband). Everyone's body is different. Some people (increasing numbers) have celiac issues, there are food allergies cropping up like crazy! Many people have chronic health issues related to allergies they don't even know they have. Isn't the most important thing just to be aware of your body and do the best you can for yourself?
What i can never understand is why people feel a need to pass judgement on the diets of people who aren't asking for dietary advice. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| If you mean me, I didn't give dietary advice--I asked for proof that certain diets are "risky." And if you were vegan for four years, you must understand the moral issues and know that we're not talking about a personal preference for peas vs. carrots. |
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Crockpot2001
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Poltergeist wrote: |
| If you mean me, I didn't give dietary advice--I asked for proof that certain diets are "risky." And if you were vegan for four years, you must understand the moral issues and know that we're not talking about a personal preference for peas vs. carrots. |
I get the feeling you are referencing me.
I accept that I doled out nutrition advice yesterday, specifically, the addition of an acid, such as that found in an orange in the form of ascorbic and citric acid, to a non-heme fe+ souce. right or wrong, I'll never do that again.
But, right now, I just feel the need to on record as saying that I never implied that a well thought out vegetarian diet poses a risk. A poorly executed one, yes, poses a risk. We all know that. Any crap diet poses it's own special set of risks. If someone would be kind enough to PM where I said a vegatarian or any well planned diet poses a risk, I will be thankful.
There's no desire to bring up what went on yesterday create a new arguement or participate in one that's already rolling. I just feel I need to stand up for myself. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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You don't seem to get what it is you did wrong. I would have no problem with the dietary advice you provided in the other thread if you had delivered it in a decent way. LP said a lunch of broccoli and bran flakes was enough to give [most people] enough iron. That's just lunch, and broccoli has vitamin C, doesn't it?
You could have pointed out in a normal tone of voice that LP's lunch doesn't provide enough iron for everyone and that the broccoli doesn't have enough vitamin C to increase iron absorption (if that's the case). You could have said, "I think the same lunch + orange juice is a better example of a healthy vegan lunch for ..." most people? Most men? Most women? I don't know. You could have urged readers to eat more iron at dinner instead of just relying on lunch. It's the way you inserted yourself into the thread with a snide comment that I didn't like.
Again, with the "poorly executed" thing, you don't single out certain kinds of poorly executed diets as potentially risky unless they are risky compared with other poorly executed diets. Your post carried the assumption that LP hadn't put enough thought into his food choices and wasn't competent to plan a healthy lunch without a trip to the library.
However, most people reading these boards don't know about phytates or other -ates and they somehow manage to survive. Furthermore, the initial post in the thread contained serious inaccuracies. Instead of addressing those inaccuracies, you zeroed in on LP and his sample lunch--which I'll bet is much healthier than the lunches 99 percent of us eat day in and day out.
Do you see my point now? |
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Crockpot2001
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Poltergeist wrote: |
You don't seem to get what it is you did wrong. I would have no problem with the dietary advice you provided in the other thread if you had delivered it in a decent way. LP said a lunch of broccoli and bran flakes was enough to give [most people] enough iron. That's just lunch, and broccoli has vitamin C, doesn't it?
You could have pointed out in a normal tone of voice that LP's lunch doesn't provide enough iron for everyone and that the broccoli doesn't have enough vitamin C to increase iron absorption (if that's the case). You could have said, "I think the same lunch + orange juice is a better example of a healthy vegan lunch for ..." most people? Most men? Most women? I don't know. You could have urged readers to eat more iron at dinner instead of just relying on lunch. It's the way you inserted yourself into the thread with a snide comment that I didn't like.
Again, with the "poorly executed" thing, you don't single out certain kinds of poorly executed diets as potentially risky unless they are risky compared with other poorly executed diets. Your post carried the assumption that LP hadn't put enough thought into his food choices and wasn't competent to plan a healthy lunch without a trip to the library.
However, most people reading these boards don't know about phytates or other -ates and they somehow manage to survive. Furthermore, the initial post in the thread contained serious inaccuracies. Instead of addressing those inaccuracies, you zeroed in on LP and his sample lunch--which I'll bet is much healthier than the lunches 99 percent of us eat day in and day out.
Do you see my point now? |
I'm a bit nervous to respond to this. I appreciate the time you took to explain it. I'm glad to know that on content, I am not wrong. Would this free me from the responsibilty of providing links for something I was not asserting? I think that's were I was getting frustrated. You really hammered me on that yesterday and I was not in disagreement with you. I had no idea someone out there would read so much mood lack of tact into what I posted.
Maybe I came off as snarky or mean but that was not the intent as I have mentioned a few times. If you wish to see me as an aggressor in this, that's just not the case. I was simply, and quickly adding something to the comment LP made, not asserting he knew too little to feed himself as you seem to feel I said. Maybe you were a little rough too and have imbued some things into the conversation. For example; I never implied anyone was an idiot, which is where I was sure that your were mixing LP and I up.
So, do I see your point? Yoes, you saw my response as course or maybe not giving LP the credit he may deserve. I saw LP's response to the OP as course and could have been worded softer. But his response was not to me so I felt no need to admonish him for it. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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PDF link here to a position paper from the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada about vegetarian diets. The first sentence reads:
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It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and
Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets
are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits
in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. |
Of course, the key here is appropriately planned. The same goes for a non-vegetarian diet. An inappropriately planned diet is not healthy. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
PDF link here to a position paper from the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada about vegetarian diets. The first sentence reads:
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It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and
Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets
are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits
in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. |
Of course, the key here is appropriately planned. The same goes for a non-vegetarian diet. An inappropriately planned diet is not healthy. |
Thanks for the link ... I have a feeling it may have been posted before in other Dave's threads, but it's good to see it again. If you read the first paragraph, it's clear that the statement is intended to apply to all kinds of vegetarian diets, including vegan diets. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Crockpot2001 wrote: |
| Poltergeist wrote: |
You don't seem to get what it is you did wrong. I would have no problem with the dietary advice you provided in the other thread if you had delivered it in a decent way. LP said a lunch of broccoli and bran flakes was enough to give [most people] enough iron. That's just lunch, and broccoli has vitamin C, doesn't it?
You could have pointed out in a normal tone of voice that LP's lunch doesn't provide enough iron for everyone and that the broccoli doesn't have enough vitamin C to increase iron absorption (if that's the case). You could have said, "I think the same lunch + orange juice is a better example of a healthy vegan lunch for ..." most people? Most men? Most women? I don't know. You could have urged readers to eat more iron at dinner instead of just relying on lunch. It's the way you inserted yourself into the thread with a snide comment that I didn't like.
Again, with the "poorly executed" thing, you don't single out certain kinds of poorly executed diets as potentially risky unless they are risky compared with other poorly executed diets. Your post carried the assumption that LP hadn't put enough thought into his food choices and wasn't competent to plan a healthy lunch without a trip to the library.
However, most people reading these boards don't know about phytates or other -ates and they somehow manage to survive. Furthermore, the initial post in the thread contained serious inaccuracies. Instead of addressing those inaccuracies, you zeroed in on LP and his sample lunch--which I'll bet is much healthier than the lunches 99 percent of us eat day in and day out.
Do you see my point now? |
I'm a bit nervous to respond to this. I appreciate the time you took to explain it. I'm glad to know that on content, I am not wrong. Would this free me from the responsibilty of providing links for something I was not asserting? I think that's were I was getting frustrated. You really hammered me on that yesterday and I was not in disagreement with you. I had no idea someone out there would read so much mood lack of tact into what I posted.
Maybe I came off as snarky or mean but that was not the intent as I have mentioned a few times. If you wish to see me as an aggressor in this, that's just not the case. I was simply, and quickly adding something to the comment LP made, not asserting he knew too little to feed himself as you seem to feel I said. Maybe you were a little rough too and have imbued some things into the conversation. For example; I never implied anyone was an idiot, which is where I was sure that your were mixing LP and I up.
So, do I see your point? Yoes, you saw my response as course or maybe not giving LP the credit he may deserve. I saw LP's response to the OP as course and could have been worded softer. But his response was not to me so I felt no need to admonish him for it. |
The OP in the original thread may or may not have been serious. It read like an amalgamation of all the stereotypical "whiny veggie in Korea" threads that people have been posting here for six-plus years. LP's response was incredibly restrained, and I think he deserves a medal for it. (Except the rennet part, which I took issue with.) If you didn't see that, you weren't reading carefully.
Why not contribute something more substantial to the discussion than: "Poor me, what did I do? How could anyone be mad about that *innocent* comment?" |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Vegetarian...healthy? |
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| Poltergeist wrote: |
| calicoe wrote: |
edit: Ok, you edited your post, which changes the meaning of your post, and, at least makes it a bit more honest, in my opinion. |
WTF? I corrected a link that didn't work. I said nothing dishonest.
| Quote: |
| I never called you a raw foodist. I think I explained my reference to raw food well enough already. |
You implied 1) that it was impossible to be both vegan AND raw, and 2) that all vegans were either claiming to be raw foodists or offering a quick fix for people's health problems. That's not the case. Some vegans use cooked food, processed food, tobacco, alcohol and/or cocaine, just as some nonvegans do. Vegans can be as healthy or as unhealthy as they want in their food/drug/other lifestyle choices. I don't have the willpower to be a raw vegan, but I think it's a great idea. Also, most people in this society eat grain, regardless of what else they eat, so your anti-grain crusade seems out of place in a thread about the alleged health benefits of flesh eating.
I wasn't making any kind of statement about your condition, general or otherwise--there are many conditions that make it harder for people to plan their diets and yours is one of them. I think some people with Celiac would find that link helpful. You obviously don't. Fine.
I don't know why you would feel singled out for any more judgment than other people. Ninety-nine percent of the population doesn't share my values--I can't take them all on in one conversation. I'm responding to your posts because they're misleading and alarmist. Most people on these boards don't have a serious condition that will put them in hospital if they eat a bowl of rice. I think your posts could deter ordinary, non-sick people from attempting veganism, and could push them toward fad diets that are totally unsupported by any reliable evidence. I also hope people who are sick will seek out reliable information and not look to fad diets as quick fixes.
The thread is really about iron, not about the gladiators or your flat stomach. I suspect it's harder for me to absorb iron than it is for most people, and that means I need to be more careful than most people. What I don't need is some preacher (not you, I'm referring to another poster who commented in the previous thread) posting a condescending lecture about phytates. That is why this thread started. |
No, I didn't mean to imply that you lied. I just meant that I appreciated that you were telling me what the issue was - that you were offended. I thought that was edited in, but maybe it was there already. It was late, and I was home with a migraine.
Thanks for the explanation on raw food and veganism, but as I stated already, I know the difference. You don't need to lecture me. I never implied that it was impossible to be both, nor anything you listed in you first point above; that was your reading of it. I was responding to someone else's post that was representing a frutarian as a representative of veganism, and I was noting that he is not representative of veganism per se, but a vegan raw foodist, which is completely different, especially when it comes to grains.
I didn't bother to spell everything out because it was late, and I thought anyone who was reading and following the thread would see the difference.
Also, I am not alarmist, again that is your reading and interpretation of things. Where have I spread alarm? Did I make any of the generalizations on raw foodism and vegainism that you assume above - no, that was your reading of it. Did I say vegetarianism and vegainism is unhealthy? No, on the contrary I said raw foodism is very healthy, but that a vegan or vegetarian diet focused on grains can be very unhealthy. How is that ANY different in nature than what vegetarianism says about all animal-based diets? Talk about being an alarmist.
Also, where I am I talking about fad diets? I have done tons of research on my condition, and often end up educating the medical practitioners, so please don't attempt to categorize me simply for your own convenience. Again, you assume so much, and condescend. By the way, your link didn't work. And, I have already done the research on Celiacs and veganism and vegetarianism. Why do you assume to know more about this than someone struggling with the illness? If you need to refer people to such a link, a much better one would be: www.vegiac.com.
http://www.vegiac.com/forums/index.php
However, I have yet to meet a vegetarian/vegan celiac in Northeast Asia, that would be able to survive either the gluten in EVERYTHING, or the meat in everything simultaneously, and not be eligible for more than 90 percent of the supplements.
I came on this thread thinking it was an open discussion on the title above, which is a pertinent topic for me, as I have many friends who are vegan, vegetarian, and raw foodists. I have also considered becoming a vegetarian recently, but realized it would be too difficult here. Also, I believe that vegetarianism and veganism is morally superior, but I am alos questioning whether it is really healthier, as we've all been led to believe.
So, I thought I could come on here just to discuss the issue some of us have with B12 and iron, as was mentioned in the first post. I responded to some other posts that came up as well, and made a pertinent point about grains. It is OK to assume all meat eaters are either fat and bloated, or bogged down with diabetes and high-blood pressure, but I can't state a contradictory fact, which is that I am as thin and fit as many vegans, apart from my autoimmune response to grains? What a double standard.
Anyway, I had no idea my very presence here was going to "offend" anyone, and I find it ironic that you would complain about others condescending to you on the topic of vegetarianism (I went and read the other thread), but then you come on here and take a condescending tone towards me.
Life is too short to have meaningless arguments, but it is good to be able to have a place for discussion. I can see this is not the thread for discussion, but the title was misleading.
Nevertheless, I wish you all a long and healthy life. Have a good winter season, and eat lots of citrus and raw garlic (cut it don't chew it, and it won't smell).
Cheers. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Calicoe, you're the one who is misreading. I never said I knew anything about Celiac, and I didn't know about the veg Celiac website either. I haven't had a chance to read the book I linked to, but I've read a few other works by the same authors and I know they're amazing people and reliable sources of information. The link should work ... it worked for me just now.
I'm sorry you're suffering from a debilitating condition, but I have no patience for anyone who promotes the blood-type diet or the "paleo" diet. Those are fad diets, and there's no proof they have any legitimacy. This thread started because the OP made unsupported statements in the previous thread, and statements like that can't be allowed to stand. I understand that you personally can't tolerate grains, but so far I've seen no proof that a grain-based diet will harm the majority of people.
I don't think anyone said vegan athletes, or vegan raw food athletes, were representative of vegans in general or that all meat eaters were fat, diabetic, etc. However, vegan athletes (raw or otherwise) are living proof that it's not necessary to eat animal products to be big and strong. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Poltergeist wrote: |
| This thread started because the OP made unsupported statements in the previous thread, . |
What unsupported statements did I make? Quote please and a direct quote....(what I said, not what you think I said.)
I think if you go back and READ the thread you will find that I said no such thing. I said the MAYO CLINIC stated that vegetarians were at a higher risk and I provided the link as well.
So please find these "unsupported statements" that I supposedly made in the previous thread or retract this accusation sir. Thank you. |
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Poltergeist
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Poltergeist wrote: |
| This thread started because the OP made unsupported statements in the previous thread, . |
What unsupported statements did I make? Quote please and a direct quote....(what I said, not what you think I said.)
I think if you go back and READ the thread you will find that I said no such thing. I said the MAYO CLINIC stated that vegetarians were at a higher risk and I provided the link as well.
So please find these "unsupported statements" that I supposedly made in the previous thread or retract this accusation sir. Thank you. |
I was referring to "wide-eyed wanderer," the OP who started the other thread. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Poltergeist wrote: |
...I have no patience for anyone who promotes the blood-type diet or the "paleo" diet. Those are fad diets, and there's no proof they have any legitimacy ... I understand that you personally can't tolerate grains, but so far I've seen no proof that a grain-based diet will harm the majority of people. |
I am not "promoting" anything, I just came on here to have a discussion on a current topic that is haunting me. You seem to be the one shoving people off of some platform edge you've got going on.
I simply discussed my experiences and observations, and one significant experience is that I recently found an uncanny match to my own food intolerances and genetic profile with the blood-type diet, all the way down to my fingertips, AFTER I had been struggling with it for a few years.
I would hardly call a diet that advocates eating different combinations of fruits, vegetables - and yes - animal products a "fad." But, what it does say is that some people are better suited for vegetarianism than others, which seems to be my truth as well.
And, just because you haven't heard of many people having problems with grains doesn't mean it is not an issue. It is still an emerging and undiagnosed health issue in the U.S., but nevertheless there are world-class research hospitals dedicated solely to this issue in Europe, and some newer high-profile units in the U.S. which have sprung up in the last 5-10 years.
http://www.celiacdisease.net/
University of Chicago:
"97% of people with Celiac Disease have not been diagnosed."
http://www.celiaccenter.org/
University of Maryland
"Once thought to be a rare, tropical ailment, Celiac Disease today is increasingly easy to diagnose. Because of a breakthrough in just the last few years, we now know Celiac Disease is common. "
http://www.celiacdiseasecenter.columbia.edu/CF-HOME.htm
Columbia University:
"While Celiac Disease is considered common in Europe, there is a general lack of recognition and diagnosis of Celiac Disease in the United States."
http://www.vegiac.com/forums/main-discussion/839-has-being-vegetarian-caused-my-celiac-disease-occur-earlier.html
Anyway, I'm done here. Didn't mean to "offend"or annoy, just discuss.
Have a good season, and stay healthy and warm.
Calicoe |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
I would hardly call a diet that advocates eating different combinations of fruits, vegetables - and yes - animal products a "fad." But, what it does say is that some people are better suited for vegetarianism than others, which seems to be my truth as well. |
I followed the blood type diet for awhile. I felt healthier at first, but went back to eating bread after awhile and didn't react to it as badly as I had before the diet. Lately, I pretty much eat nothing but wheat, but the bad reactions I used to have haven't come back. I'm still afraid of whole wheat products though, those were always the worst.
Not making any point really, just sharing my experience. I don't have celiac or anything like that. |
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