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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Vikings landed in North America well before the European settlers Junior refers to. They didn't make it. They could survive in Norway but not in Canada and/or Greenland.
If I were Junior, I'd make a leap of logic that the First Nations killed them. I wouldn't back it up with anything, and when someone asked me for proof, I'd ignore them for pages and pages while trying to break down other people's arguments akin to cutting down a tree with a butterknife. All in the name of anti-Islam.
| stilicho25 wrote: |
I have seen everything from 100 million, to 10
million, usually with very little evidence to back up the number. Smallpox killed an unbelievable number, so its really hard to say.
As far as pushing out indiginous people, the native americans themselves came in at least three waves. In fact, I just saw a history channel thingy which presented evidence of an early wave of japanese settlement of peru (they exhumed mummies which had diseases only found in Japan)
As we see in this argument, its a huge political football. Any reasonable person would say yes, Europeans did conquer the natives in a brutal fashion, as the natives had once conquered other natives. Its really just waves of humanity first overcoming, and then mixing with the populations they overcome. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| According to Jared Diamond in collapse, Inuit did off the vikings in Greenland, or out-competed them. Although the 1000 people in the northern colony all disapearing at once, doesn't say much for the out-competing theory. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
I have seen everything from 100 million, to 10 million, usually with very little evidence to back up the number. Smallpox killed an unbelievable number, so its really hard to say.
As far as pushing out indiginous people, the native americans themselves came in at least three waves. In fact, I just saw a history channel thingy which presented evidence of an early wave of japanese settlement of peru (they exhumed mummies which had diseases only found in Japan)
As we see in this argument, its a huge political football. Any reasonable person would say yes, Europeans did conquer the natives in a brutal fashion, as the natives had once conquered other natives. Its really just waves of humanity first overcoming, and then mixing with the populations they overcome. |
This is train of discusion is specific to Canada, not the greater Americas. So to be clear, where did you see numbers of 100,000,000 aboriginal people in the area we now call Canada? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
I have seen everything from 100 million, to 10 million, usually with very little evidence to back up the number. Smallpox killed an unbelievable number, so its really hard to say.
As far as pushing out indiginous people, the native americans themselves came in at least three waves. In fact, I just saw a history channel thingy which presented evidence of an early wave of japanese settlement of peru (they exhumed mummies which had diseases only found in Japan)
As we see in this argument, its a huge political football. Any reasonable person would say yes, Europeans did conquer the natives in a brutal fashion, as the natives had once conquered other natives. Its really just waves of humanity first overcoming, and then mixing with the populations they overcome. |
This is train of discusion is specific to Canada, not the greater Americas. So to be clear, where did you see numbers of 100,000,000 aboriginal people in the area we now call Canada? |
I believe that the 100,000,000 figure is for all of the Americas and includes a projection of a sophisticated society in the Amazon. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Northway is correct, it was the total population of the Americas. I have no idea how many were in Canada, and how many were killed in the moves west, or in the early colonial period.
Not sure why you were just focusing on Canada. I don't really think any countries really existed for the first several hundred years of the colonization. They were just the English and French settlers living in whatever locality they had ended up in. National identities came much later, so if we are looking at the original conquest, it should be based on what European country was making the push, rather than on what geographic local, at least IMHO. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Any reasonable person would say yes, Europeans did conquer the natives in a brutal fashion, as the natives had once conquered other natives. Its really just waves of humanity first overcoming, and then mixing with the populations they overcome. |
Thankyou. Thankyou.
At last someone speaks an ounce of sense.
As I said...most nations have blood on their hands when it comes to imperial conquest, ethnic cleansing, land grabs, and then creative re-writing of history.
Which is why I become nauseous when I see colonial countries expecially pointing the finger at Israel and crying foul. They did the same with e.g south africa- revelling in self righteous fury- and all the while their own countries were founded on genocide and mass displacement of former peoples.
Its hypocrisy of the highest order.
Now if anyone -on the face of planet- has a rightful claim to territory it is the Jews and Israel. Certainly way beyond any claim white people have to being in Canada. Or America. or the US. or Australia. Or New Zealand. Or Chile. Or Argentina.
Or any of the other colonial countries criticising Israel. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| And no, a blog from 5 years ago with 5 posts on it doesn't count. |
Try this. They killed babies, sterilised kids, took them from their parents.
http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/
I suggest the world community place sanctions on Canada until the occupied territories of Alberta, British Colombia etc are handed back to their rightful owners. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: |
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@ junior I am not sure I can agree. Just because it was a common occurance in human history doesn't mean we should continue doing it. Or we could say that after an arbitrary date, say after the UN treaties against aggression came into effect, that this was no longer acceptable. Your right that criticism in the west is hypocritical, but that doesn't mean Isreal is in the right, rather that we should just be a tad more aware of our own flaws.
As for Jews belonging in Israel, I have no real problem with it. But they also need to deal with the other people living their with some sort of decency. At the moment they are playing both sides of the argument.
One final question. How much land do you think they are entitled to. Israel went through expansive and contractive phases just like any nation. Do you believe they are entitled to the west bank? To Jordan? What about the people living there?
Whats your ideal resolution of this problem? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| And no, a blog from 5 years ago with 5 posts on it doesn't count. |
Try this. They killed babies, sterilised kids, took them from their parents.
http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/
I suggest the world community place sanctions on Canada until the occupied territories of Alberta, British Colombia etc are handed back to their rightful owners. |
yet that's NOT what you claimed.
here, let me help you...
| Junior wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
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| I wish Canada would do the same. |
I hear you killed off most of the natives. Maybe you should give back the land you stole. |
| Junior wrote: |
When you've murdered 99% of them and swamped their country with whiteys, its hardly any risk to you to give voting rights to the remaining handful.
Throw in a doggy bag for them if it makes you feel better. Squatting on their land. |
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So, what proof do you have that MOST of the Natives... or in your words, 99% of them were murdered??
Where's the proof??
| Junior wrote: |
| Point is Cap'n that you took their land and killed a few of them in the process. Maybe not you personally, but your race, your forefathers, your nation. You flooded their territory until you outnumbered them and took the ruling power. Your residence is an illegal squattership of someone elses property. |
Again, I'll ask - how do you know my family's history? Do you know my family name? Me personally? How do you know what MY forefathers did?
| Junior wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| And as far as being illegal... mind showing me what laws were broken? You've already claimed a 99% murder rate... mind showing me specifically which laws you KNOW I and my forefathers broke? |
Trespass. |
Where was this Trespassing law you've spoken about? Were the first settlers cited with it? Do you have any evidence of it?
Your outlandish claims are damaging the actual issue of Native Rights and History in Canada. It's a great one to discuss, but your ridiculous assertions and outright lies do nothing to forward it.
Where'd you study Canadian history, BTW? I studied it at the UofC. Took a few courses specific on this topic actually.
Last edited by Captain Corea on Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Or we could say that after an arbitrary date, say after the UN treaties against aggression came into effect, that this was no longer acceptable. |
Well that suits you now doesn't it.
You get to decide the date, and whats more its long after you completed the genocide in your country.
So now having killed off the natives to ensure that they cannot threaten your future occupancy of the land, you then play holier than thou to other countries.
FYI, it is the countries that DID NOT commit genocide against the native peoples (as eg Americans/ canadians did) that are experiencing problems.
Lets see. In colonial South Africa there was no mass killing of natives. Instead they were given education and welfare.. and benefitted so much that after 200 years they vastly outnumbered the white settlers. At which point all the problems for the whites began. Perhaps they should have followed the north American example and annihilated the natives.
Its a similar case with Israel. The population of Palestinians has exploded since the creation of Israel, due to benefitting from Jewish rule. So now you now want to punish the Israelis for their beneficient rule? You want to kill the hand that is feeding all those Palestinians?
| Quote: |
| Whats your ideal resolution of this problem? |
The Palestinians must prove that they can be responsible rulers of a Palestinian state. They must drop the hatred, terrorism and quit sending rockets into Israel. Arabs have a massive, massive area of the planet to live on. Its called the Middle East and North Africa. For pity's sake, let the Jews have their tiny plot- documented as belonging to them for thousands of years.
The international media must quit their one-sided criticism of Israel. Stop the ridiculous and disproportionate bias.
| Quote: |
| But they also need to deal with the other people living their with some sort of decency. |
Of course I don't agree with everything that happens in Israel.
I don't agree with everything that happens in Korea or japan either.
But there is waaay too much focus and propooganda against Israel in the media. There are far, far worse things going on in regimes in other countries that are just brushed over and ignored. I already pointed out Chile's oppression of its native peoples. Its poor human rights record. yet nobody cares. Instead they are more interested if someone farts in Tel Aviv ...than if 1000 people are hacked to death in Darfur. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I was just making a formal point. I did not mean to suggest English rapaciousness could be excused while Israeli rapaciousness could not.
I really have no dog in this fight, I was just curious about what you would do with the Palestinians.
Yes, there are alot of worse places then Israel, but I do believe they are headed in the wrong direction. Up to them though, I really couldn't care less. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Junior, are you giving the British Museum back? Are you in favor of reparations returning all the wealth that the British Empire garnered from the rest of the world? Do you think your hands are clean? Do you think England should be returned to the Welsh? What about Northern Ireland? Or does your support for Israel absolve you from considering any of these questions?
Last edited by northway on Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| So, what proof do you have that MOST of the Natives... or in your words, 99% of them were murdered?? |
Even if 99% of indigenous North Americans died from the time Columbus landed, relatively few of that number were actually murdered. I don't think this is really historically debatable. The reason colonial accounts speak of walking into untouched orchards is that European diseases had already done most of the work for the colonists. Does this justify what was done thereafter on any level? No. But murder and opportunistic colonization are very different things. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
So, what proof do you have that MOST of the Natives... or in your words, 99% of them were murdered??
Where's the proof?? |
Don't worry your head about it too much cap.
| Quote: |
| Again, I'll ask - how do you know my family's history? Do you know my family name? Me personally? How do you know what MY forefathers did? |
You have a tendency to try hard to take things personally.
Is it so that you can then threaten to hit other posters?
*captain America here used to post pictures of his (or someone's) muscly body here to intimidate other posters. Then he would threaten to punch anyone who disagreed with him. 
| Quote: |
| Where was this Trespassing law you've spoken about? Were the first settlers cited with it? Do you have any evidence of it? |
Trespass does not need a special law made (by the tresspasser  ) for it to be a reality. You trespass everytime you walk on someone elses property without permission. Its fairly obvious... |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Junior, are you giving the British Museum back? Are you in favor of reparations returning all the wealth that the British Empire garnered from the rest of the world? Do you think your hands are clean? Do you think England should be returned to the Welsh? What about Northern Ireland? |
Why not? Or are you only for reparations in regard to other countries except for your own?
I remember the west pressurizing apartheid South Africa back in the late 80's. There was all kinds of self-righteous ecstacy flowing back then.
But of course the same western nations that imposed sanctions back then, are hypocrites ...they have a lot of racism in their own countries that they refuse to face up to.
Racial segregation in the US is pretty apalling. Most australians outside of the big cities view aborigines as animals. Racist nationalism is rearing its head in the UK and parts of Europe. Canadians refuse to acknowledge any wrongs were ever inflicted on their native peoples. And so on. |
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