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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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 Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Would you call this racist? |
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| hostness wrote: |
| bigpun wrote: |
To clarify, these Korean guys weren't leaning over the bar near the register - they were facing the big screen, with their backs to the bar, they just happened to be in front of the order pick-up area. For what it is worth, when a white customer did this later on, the owner simply asked him politely to move (he explained he was waiting to pick up a beer, and there was no problem.)
To those who suggested that I go elsewhere, and don't give any support to this business, that's exactly what I am doing. I am not telling anyone that they should do the same thing. The reason I brought this up is to make people aware of the kind of situations that occur in this bar, because this kind of thing should be a consideration when you consider where you spend your money, shouldn't it? I don't expect to change people's minds, because obviously if something doesn't directly affect you then you may not be as inclined to act on it. That's the case even with my Korean friends who were with me that night.
I have seen and heard about other incidents like this, and I'm aware of the fact that this kind of reaction from the owner hasn't been limited to non-white customers. But the majority of the incidents I have heard about have been. This is from discussion with the conveners of the Pool and Darts Leagues, to name a few.
To jrock, the reason I call him a racist is because of a policy he has of not allowing Africans into his bar. Sure there is a mixed crowd there, including people of African descent. But I'm referring specifically to him barring people who "look African". Look around if you go in there again, and see for yourself. In the apartheid that already exists in Itaewon, Africans as well as South Asians are discriminated against at several places. It's not as bad as Thailand, but as someone who is not white, I'm speaking from personal experience when I say that these kind of incidents occur more often than you realize.
The incident I mentioned at the end of my first message, about the Trinidadian diplomats who were refused service at Sam Ryan's, is something that was going around a few months ago. They were told by the owner to leave, and when they asked why, his reponse was that he doesn't want drugs or prostitution in his establishment. There is a Facebook group, but that was based on heresay, and received mostly skepticism, kind of like the response here. I have been in contact with the newspapers and other sources back in Trinidad who confirmed that it did happen. I am trying to get in contact with the people who were involved, to confirm it firsthand. Is this racism? I mean, as a business owner, you have the right to refuse service to anyone, assuming that they have done something wrong and given you a good reason. I hate to say this, but the Africans don't have the best reputation in Itaewon (witness the removal of the pool table from Gecko's, but they aren't barred from that bar - as a group I mean.) Maybe something did happen, possibly repeatedly, at Sam Ryan's. But to ban an entire group of people, on the basis of their appearance and skin colour, is racist. I don't see how anyone can justify this.
So, as I said before, maybe you should consider all this when you consider where you spend your money. Or go back to the good ole' days where you could pick and choose who you want in your place of business. |
I agree with you almost completely...but really, don't use Itaewon and apartheid in the same sentence. |
Apologies. - in no way does the rubbish that goes on in Itaewon compare to that moral crime that was apartheid and the suffering it caused. I didn't mean to trivialize the meaning of the word apartheid in any way, merely to bring the point across that most of the Western community here seem to be largely oblivious or indifferent to these kinds of situations that the *majority of foreigners in this country live under.
And to the person who pointed out that this will never make a dent in his business, well, I can hope, but given that the friends who I went to meet that night don't seem to care about either incident, I've already faced up to that. But I still feel that making people aware is worthwhile on principal, and if a few others, or even one other person acts on it, that's enough. |
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sojusucks
Joined: 31 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Can one person's business put a dent in a large bar's profit/loss? Of course not, but it's that "one at a time" trickle out the door that adds up over time, and that's how places eventually go out of business.
One of the problems, as a customer, with places in Itaewon is that, no matter how badly a restaurant or bar is managed, the location means that newbies will probably still give it some business because of primo location. |
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WadRUG'naDoo
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Al? He's the least of your worries there. A handful of his regular patrons deserve a smash in the mouth and a kick to the belly after they fall down. |
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hapigokelli
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Would you call this racist? |
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| bigpun wrote: |
To jrock, the reason I call him a racist is because of a policy he has of not allowing Africans into his bar. Sure there is a mixed crowd there, including people of African descent. But I'm referring specifically to him barring people who "look African". Look around if you go in there again, and see for yourself.
So, as I said before, maybe you should consider all this when you consider where you spend your money. Or go back to the good ole' days where you could pick and choose who you want in your place of business. |
In my experience, this is completely untrue. I frequent 3 alley pub weekly with people who "look African" and there has never been a problem. In fact, we have been greeted warmly by Al, Bernie, and all of the staff.
That said, I haven't been there every day, so I can't say it has never happened. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
I don't know where I heard this, but thought it was pretty common for bars in Itaewon to bar Africans from entering. Something about them harassing the female customers. If they have such a policy, then it would be difficult for them to distinguish between diplomats and pimps in suits. Especially if they are racist. It's easy to assume we know the reasons behind the decisions these bar owners make either individually or collectively, but the end of the day, you can always take your money to someone who appreciates getting your business.
It's a good thing that people are exposing this guy though. But if you think it's going to make an impact on his business, you probably need to re-examine that one. Still, his rep needs to be exposed a bit. Maybe he will make a youtube video of his own  Then this thread could really get interesting. |
I don't see them much anymore but I remember how many Itaewon joints would ban Nigerians because the latter kept ordering ONE drink (a Coke or something) and nursing it for hours. And yes, the harassment tendencies of Nigerians have been well discussed on this board. I remember hearing about one guy who punched a girl at Scrooge Pub because he had spent an hour asking people to buy him a drink and when the girl refused, he lost it and punched her. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| I don't get what's going on in the video. With the way people are talking about it, I expected there to be at least a couple punches thrown. It's just two middle-aged (and probably drunk) men yelling at each other for inscrutable reasons. Far from racist, it actually looks like Al has fully integrated into the culture. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
I don't know where I heard this, but thought it was pretty common for bars in Itaewon to bar Africans from entering. Something about them harassing the female customers. If they have such a policy, then it would be difficult for them to distinguish between diplomats and pimps in suits. Especially if they are racist. It's easy to assume we know the reasons behind the decisions these bar owners make either individually or collectively, but the end of the day, you can always take your money to someone who appreciates getting your business.
It's a good thing that people are exposing this guy though. But if you think it's going to make an impact on his business, you probably need to re-examine that one. Still, his rep needs to be exposed a bit. Maybe he will make a youtube video of his own Then this thread could really get interesting. |
Funny, my hometown had a similiar rap against Africans in the nightclubs. They were aggressive towards women too. I'm not racist or anything, but I think people from third world countries haven't learned what sexual harrassment is. They act on primal instinct almost. Not just in Africa, but in many places. African Canadians are ok though. Most of us have learned that no means no. But even some Korean guys are pretty persistent with women too. It use to be a third world country. Women here are slowly getting rights. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| I don't get what's going on in the video. With the way people are talking about it, I expected there to be at least a couple punches thrown. It's just two middle-aged (and probably drunk) men yelling at each other for inscrutable reasons. Far from racist, it actually looks like Al has fully integrated into the culture. |
I think Al better watch out whom he pisses off. I heard the former owner of 3 Alley Pub Gunter got a severe beatdown after he closed the bar by a group of expats he angered, and after that, he was more careful with customers. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Al has always seemed to be a nice guy who handles stress badly and alas running a bar in Itaewon is always going to be an incredibly stressful job.
I wonder if he was an English teacher before going into the bar game, if a few drunken barflys make one lose it god knows how he'd cope with a classroom of screaming kids, if that's the reason for the change in careers it's a case of out of the frying pan into the fire! |
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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Neil wrote: |
Al has always seemed to be a nice guy who handles stress badly and alas running a bar in Itaewon is always going to be an incredibly stressful job.
I wonder if he was an English teacher before going into the bar game, if a few drunken barflys make one lose it god knows how he'd cope with a classroom of screaming kids, if that's the reason for the change in careers it's a case of out of the frying pan into the fire! |
I would like to think that he isn't a bad guy, and sure there are more than a few people out there in Itaewon who deserve such treatment,
but not those Korean guys in that situation I wrote about first. If what I saw is any indication of how he handles customers or shows appreciation for their business...well, actions speak louder than words.
The comments about the conduct of the Africans towards women in the bars sadly isn't without good basis - this is something I've been witness to as well. I have heard people around me speak of them, and other groups from developing countries in ways which were uncomplimentary, bordering on racist - I'm not saying this about anyone who made comments here, I'm just pointing out that it's difficult to discuss this topic without making some dangerous generalizations. But this policy that seems to have been enforced at Sam Ryan's (I'm talking about the diplomats from Trinidad) certainly goes one step beyond that.
And the end result of all this discussion is that nothing much will change: people will continue to go to Sam Ryan's/3-Alley, and the owner's policy probably will be to assume that since there will always be enough business, once someone gets on his bad side there's no need for that person to come back, no matter how it looks. But at least there were those of you who gave this thread a thought and a second look.
Sidebar: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that very few of us actually have friends among these groups (I for one don't have many - haven't had the opportunity to meet more) To the poster who mentioned that he's gone to Sam's with friends who "look African", if they are actually African, you may have "legitimized" them (same as the white friends I travelled with did for me in Thailand, and here.) |
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Lacan7
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:35 am Post subject: |
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I don't know or care about the owner of SR's, and I really don't like going there that much anyway.
Now, I also was there that night. It was the Manchester United vs Barcelona game, correct? I also saw these guys getting kicked out. But I also remember them yelling/screaming, dancing around without looking were the staff enters and exits the bar, and going in front of the screen a lot. While it was amusing at first, it got highly annoying to the people that were just there to see the game.
Like I said, I don't know the guy, and it's not a bar that I go to. But those guys were kicked out for legitimate reasons. |
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hapigokelli
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Neil wrote: |
Al has always seemed to be a nice guy who handles stress badly and alas running a bar in Itaewon is always going to be an incredibly stressful job.
I wonder if he was an English teacher before going into the bar game, if a few drunken barflys make one lose it god knows how he'd cope with a classroom of screaming kids, if that's the reason for the change in careers it's a case of out of the frying pan into the fire! |
In fact, he was an English teacher when he first came to Korea. He says that he met his wife when his hagwon sent her to pick him up from the airport his first day here. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Would you call this racist? |
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Repeat post
Last edited by Privateer on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Would you call this racist? |
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| bigpun wrote: |
| To clarify, these Korean guys weren't leaning over the bar near the register - they were facing the big screen, with their backs to the bar, they just happened to be in front of the order pick-up area. For what it is worth, when a white customer did this later on, the owner simply asked him politely to move (he explained he was waiting to pick up a beer, and there was no problem.) |
Hmm, and what would happen if you asked 2 Koreans guys politely to move?
a.) They tune it out and completely ignore you because it's in English.
b.) They give you the impenetrable wall of incomprehension look because it's in English.
c.) They struggle to explain why they're standing there, making a palaver over it, then finally apologise and move.
d.) They get bolshy over it.
e.) They say 'Oh, sorry, didn't realise' and move.
I would say e.) is a very unlikely outcome and a stressed and busy owner doesn't have time to deal with the other options.
Of course, that doesn't excuse rudeness or violence, but it does make it more understandable.
There's also option f.) ask a Korean staff member to tell them to move - but there's still always the possibility that they'll ignore lowly servitors/young staff/female staff causing them stress also.
At the end of the day, they're not going to be cool about it and as the owner you're going to have to make special allowances for this group of people causing you unnecessary aggravation. No wonder he's pissed. |
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rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bigpun wrote: |
And the end result of all this discussion is that nothing much will change: people will continue to go to Sam Ryan's/3-Alley. |
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear (or perhaps I feel myself more important than I should  ), but I've committed myself and about 50 or so close friends (oh, and about 100 or so other blog followers and friends in journalism) from visiting the place.
So, the end result is that the bar at least won't be on (my) people's top priorities and, yes, you've effectively proven your point.
Whistling and throwing dog calls to patrons is simply unacceptable behavior from a service employee on any accounts--whether they are blocking a TV or close to a register. You don't go whistling and yelling ajosshi to people as if you're dealing with your cousin during Super Bowl Tuesday. If the owner can't control himself, then he should at least have the common sense to fire himself and hire someone who can.
As for the people who are so hungry for fried chicken and beer snacks that they can't be bothered to consider service, I say more power to them. Classless people do no harm; they only make us look better.
Last edited by rchristo10 on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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