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Why Are Korean Holidays So Short? (i.e. They suck!)
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akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:07 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Christmas: 0 days
Proper New Year: 0 days

Expat Culture Fail.

If you have this kind of attitude, overseas in different cultures is not for you.

No. There is a "proper" new year, according to the calender, by which we measure things. Lunar new year may be more important for some, but since January 1st denotes the year change that is used globally for everything official, it is the "proper" one.

pkang0202 wrote:

Blame the Gregorian Calendar.

No. People frequently get Fridays/Mondays off in other countries if the holiday falls on a weekend. In the US, holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays. It's not the calender's fault here.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

Doesn't mean you're entitled to a New Year's Day day off. And if it bothers you that much that you aren't getting one, living overseas is not for you.

I think "proper" is the wrong word. Is Lunar New Year's improper?

And since Lunar New Year is so improper, I assume we will see you at your desk next year working those days correct?

Oh, but that's right, you'll take those two or three days off and then gripe how you aren't getting enough vacation time because you aren't getting the one New Year's Day off, which in fact you still are.

Again, fail.

Quote:

No. People frequently get Fridays/Mondays off in other countries if the holiday falls on a weekend. In the US, holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays. It's not the calender's fault here.

So if 4th of July is on a Saturday, you get 6th of July, a Monday, off? No you don't. Yes, you get Memorial Day and Labor Day on a Monday. And while you are entitled to get them off, ask anyone in the service industry what's entailed in getting that day off. If you work hourly, your spiteful boss may cut your hours cut because you refuse or get unfavorable shifts. What's a burger flipper going to do, go to the labor board?

What holidays are scheduled for Monday's? Easter Sunday? Thanksgiving? Christmas? Veteran's Day? People still have to work January 2nd and December 26th. It's just that many choose to use vacation time then.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

So if 4th of July is on a Saturday, you get 6th of July, a Monday, off? No you don't.

No, you'd typically get the closer one, Friday off.
At least in Canada all stat holidays are given off in lieu if they'd fall on a regular off day. There are even provisions for burger flippers as well.
If you work the kind of job that is still happening on a day like that, you'll get holiday pay. regularly make $10/hour and you'll get $25/hour for that day.
Full time employees, even burger flippers have to be given a day off for those holidays and if not they're either paid more or given another day off.

Skippy

Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:28 am Post subject:

Wow! Do I get to live the dream! Can I actually get to say it and call a tolerant/multicultural Canadian - a hypocrite and Cultural Imperialist. Proper New Years. God! What about Arbour Day? Back many years ago Arbour Day was a nice red day in Korea. It was on April 5th. But of course it needs to be the proper Arbour Day which is Canada - September 5th or umm American - April 10th, but why should the Americans get the glory so New Zealand's June 5th or no no the country that has the most and whose forest is the lungs of the world Brazil - September 21st. But for me Arbour Day will always be April 5th. Day Han Migook! So if you want your nice holidays and extra days off - why not go back to Canada.

akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:46 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Doesn't mean you're entitled to a New Year's Day day off. And if it bothers you that much that you aren't getting one, living overseas is not for you.

Didn't say it did. Didn't say it bothers me. You took offense at him calling Jan 1st "proper" New Year's, which it is. In Asia it's not better or more significant, but it is the proper New Year's, unless Asia is still using the lunar calender.

Steelrails wrote:

I think "proper" is the wrong word. Is Lunar New Year's improper?

Yes, as it is not a practical new year.
(One of the many) definition of proper: strictly limited to a specified thing, place, or idea

New Year's Day is strictly limited to the start of a new year. Unless you follow the lunar calender, the only PROPER start of the New Year is Jan 1st.

Steelrails wrote:

And since Lunar New Year's is so improper, I assume we will see you at your desk next year working those days correct?

This doesn't even make sense. That's like saying I should go to work on Christmas because it's not proper New Year's Day.

Just because it's not Jan 1st doesn't mean Lunar New Year's isn't valid or important holiday. It just means it's not actually New Year's Day. It's Lunar New Year's. Proper has nothing to do with the holiday's legitimacy or importance.

Steelrails wrote:

Oh, but that's right, you'll take those two or three days off and then gripe how you aren't getting enough vacation time because you aren't getting the one New Year's Day off, which in fact you still are.

I never complained about any of this. You're putting words in my mouth.

Steelrails wrote:

Again, fail.

The only fail is yours.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

No. People frequently get Fridays/Mondays off in other countries if the holiday falls on a weekend. In the US, holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays. It's not the calender's fault here.

Didn't you just list 2 holidays that are scheduled for Mondays in your previous paragraph?

As for your examples:
Many places get good Friday off (every year on a Friday!), so Easter does award time off.
I don't know any salaried person that doesn't get at least one day off for Christmas. Most of my friends got Friday and Monday off last year, and it was worst case scenario.
Veteran's Day is celebrated on either Monday or Friday if it falls on a weekend.

Your examples are horrible and prove my point: it's not the calender's fault many people miss days off some years, it's failure to implement vacation time regardless.

jinks

Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Why Are Korean Holidays So Short? (i.e. They suck!)

byrddogs wrote:

How many days a year are you working in Malaysia and how is the pay there?

I'm not getting the 4-day week, plus the mega-5 month vacations I was getting in Korea, but it works out at about 3 months paid vacation at around 3mil KRW per month plus car, plus phone, plus internet. I like the work, and it is good to take on something new and interesting. One week I work mornings and afternoons (3x2hr workshops: Mon, Tue and Wed), and the next week I just work mornings.
It has been less than a month on the job, but so far I'm enjoying it!

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:09 am Post subject:

Quote:

In Asia it's not better or more significant, but it is the proper New Year's, unless Asia is still using the lunar calender.

Ever hear of Ramadan? Rosh Hashanah?

And you do realize that Easter is based on the lunar cycles as well, right?

Quote:

And in Asia, and other places, people do follow the lunar calender.

Fortunately, the people in those countries are able to follow two calenders and celebrate both holidays without getting in a huff about it.

Why not call both proper?

Quote:

Proper has nothing to do with the holiday's legitimacy or importance.

The tone of the OP certainly had a dismissive whiff towards Lunar New Year.

Why not just say New Year's Day? Why say proper New Year's?

Quote:

Didn't you just list 2 holidays that are scheduled for Mondays in your previous paragraph?

You said holiday's are usually scheduled for Mondays. I agree that a minority are scheduled for Mondays. But a quick check of the math indicates that only 2.5 are scheduled for Mondays.

Quote:

Many places get good Friday off (every year on a Friday!), so Easter does award time off.
I don't know any salaried person that doesn't get at least one day off for Christmas. Most of my friends got Friday and Monday off last year, and it was worst case scenario.
Veteran's Day is celebrated on either Monday or Friday if it falls on a weekend.

Your examples are horrible and prove my point: it's not the calender's fault many people miss days off some years, it's failure to implement vacation time regardless.

And many people and schools give people "Travel days" as holidays during Lunar New Year and Chuseok. They aren't official holidays but are included.

Really the whole OP post smacked of someone who is shocked that the Christmas-New Year's week isn't a major holiday and is used to having that time off because school isn't in session.

Business still runs on the 26th-31st of December and starts again January 2nd.

But whether or not a person has to work those days is an issue with their employer, not the culture or the country.

akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:49 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

In Asia it's not better or more significant, but it is the proper New Year's, unless Asia is still using the lunar calender.

Ever hear of Ramadan? Rosh Hashanah?

And you do realize that Easter is based on the lunar cycles as well, right?

Irrelevant. We define years as Jan 1st - Dec 31st. New Year's Day can only fall on Jan 1st.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

And in Asia, and other places, people do follow the lunar calender.

Who still follows the lunar calender?

Steelrails wrote:

Fortunately, the people in those countries are able to follow two calenders and celebrate both holidays without getting in a huff about it.

And they didn't get in a huff, you did.

Steelrails wrote:

Why not call both proper?

Because no one uses the lunar calender anymore.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Proper has nothing to do with the holiday's legitimacy or importance.

The tone of the OP certainly had a dismissive whiff towards Lunar New Year.

It had a tone of wanting to easily distinguish between the two, something the proper term does quite well. If anything, he seems to like Lunar New Year, and hate the way it's celebrated in Korea. If you had taken offense to that instead, I wouldn't have said anything.

Steelrails wrote:

Why not just say New Year's Day? Why say proper New Year's?

Why not say proper, its appropriate.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Didn't you just list 2 holidays that are scheduled for Mondays in your previous paragraph?

You said holiday's are usually scheduled for Mondays. I agree that a minority are scheduled for Mondays. But a quick check of the math indicates that only 2.5 are scheduled for Mondays.

Semantics that doesn't dispute my point.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

I won't argue with that. I feel we get less time off here than the US, but his language seemed excessive.

Steelrails wrote:

Business still runs on the 26th-31st of December and starts again January 2nd.

But whether or not a person has to work those days is an issue with their employer, not the culture or the country.

If the majority of employers do it, than it IS the country and its culture.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Semantics that doesn't dispute my point.

It clearly does since it was the basis for your point.

Quote:

If the majority of employers do it, than it IS the country and its culture.

You'd have to actually provide data to demonstrate that the majority do do it. Certainly many employers give Dec 26 off in the US, but it's not a stat holiday like Canada. Instead on that day many American retailers start their Boxing day blow-outs. So while many offices may give the day off, most retail businesses in the form of stores and food services, will be open on that day.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Irrelevant. We define years as Jan 1st - Dec 31st. New Year's Day can only fall on Jan 1st.

Who is "we?"

It's not irrelevant, because you said "unless Asia is still using the lunar calender."

Clearly, since Lunar New Year and Ramadan and Dwali, which accounts for the over 1 billion Muslims, Over 1.5 billion East and SE Asians, and close to 1 billion Hindus, Lunar calenders are still in use.

Unless you wish to claim that Ramadan is of minor significance. Which do you think holds more weight as the real New Year for Muslims? Jan. 1st or the start of Ramadan?

Quote:

And they didn't get in a huff, you did.

No, the OP did. By using the term "proper" it was insulting to his host nation and to the majority of the world which bases major holidays based on Lunar cycles and the billions who base their New Year on the Lunar Calender.

Quote:

Because no one uses the lunar calender anymore.

Except Hindus, Muslims, East and SE Asians, Jews and Christians for purposes of MAJOR holidays.

Quote:

But why use the word "proper" to describe it? Why not New Year's Day? That's the holiday's official name. What, do you think the Dave's crowd is going to get confused over that one? Come on...the only reason he did it was to be culturally insulting.

He didn't seem to have anything to say about how its celebrated besides how much time he gets off.

Quote:

Why not say proper, its appropriate.

No, it's not. It's rude, arrogant and ignorant.

Quote:

Semantics that doesn't dispute my point.

You said, and I quote:

Quote:

In the US, holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays.

Your point was that in the U.S., holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays (false) and that people frequently get time off Monday and/or Friday if they fall on a weekend. Frequently is true in the sense that many people do get that, but it is also true that many people frequently do not get those days off.

Quote:

I won't argue with that. I feel we get less time off here than the US

That's not going to last forever. Welcome to the new economy. Things are about to get a lot more like Korea. Fewer benefits for workers, way more competitive.

And as someone who worked hourly back home in the food service sector, there were only two holidays that were guaranteed- Christmas and Thanksgiving. Every other holiday was a holiday for students and salaried employees, a dreaded day for those in the service sector.

I took more vacation time my first year in Korea than I had in the previous 3 years combined.

Quote:

If the majority of employers do it, than it IS the country and its culture.

Not if a significant minority don't do it. Which is hourly workers and many self-employed people.

byrddogs

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are Korean Holidays So Short? (i.e. They suck!)

jinks wrote:

byrddogs wrote:

How many days a year are you working in Malaysia and how is the pay there?

Niceuh! I agree about the taking on something new and interesting. I've been in Shanghai for about a year now. I work a M-F 8:30-4:30 (20- 40 min class) schedule now. We work about 190 days a year (all time off paid) and get paid close to 4.0mil krw including housing allowance. There is life after Korea and the $ can be made in other places as well. Congratulations on the move and the sweet job. Thanks for letting me know about Malaysia.

akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject:

alongway wrote:

Quote:

Semantics that doesn't dispute my point.

It clearly does since it was the basis for your point.

It clearly doesn't, because my point wasn't that all holidays are on Mondays; it was that there are many holidays that are carried over if they fall on a weekend or are specifically designed to fall on a weekday. "Most" is just speaking in hyperbole.

alongway wrote:

Quote:

If the majority of employers do it, than it IS the country and its culture.

And that's why I used the qualifier "if". I don't even know where to go to find those statistics, but my personal experience says these things are true. Does your personal experience differ?

akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Irrelevant. We define years as Jan 1st - Dec 31st. New Year's Day can only fall on Jan 1st.

Ramadan is not called New Year's Day. The entire developed world considers Jan 1st to be New Year's Day. How much clearer can I be. Lunar New Year's does NOT fall on Jan 1st. Go ask 100 Koreans what day is the first day of the year. They will all say Jan 1st.

The lunar calender is not used by anyone anymore. These holidays fall on days denoted by the lunar calender, but the people celebrating them use the Gregorian calender.

And for the last time, since you didn't seem to read it any of the other times I wrote it (in caps, bold and bigger font so you won't miss it this time):

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T USE THE LUNAR CALENDER ANYMORE DOESN'T MEAN THAT THESE HOLIDAYS ARE ANY LESS SIGNIFICANT, IMPORTANT, OR LEGITIMATE.

All it means is that "Lunar New Year's" no longer falls on the first day of the new year. Therefore, using "New Year's proper" is an appropriate way to make the distinction.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

And they didn't get in a huff, you did.

No it wasn't. it was only insulting to you. You were the only one who complained.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Because no one uses the lunar calender anymore.

Except Hindus, Muslims, East and SE Asians, Jews and Christians for purposes of MAJOR holidays.

Those people still think the start of the new year is Jan 1st.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Again, only to you.

Steelrails wrote:

He didn't seem to have anything to say about how its celebrated besides how much time he gets off.

Quote:

Why not say proper, its appropriate.

No, it's not. It's rude, arrogant and ignorant.

Again, only to you.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Semantics that doesn't dispute my point.

You said, and I quote:

Quote:

In the US, holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays.

It was speaking in hyperbole; my point wasn't that holidays are usually scheduled for Mondays, it was that the Gregorian calender has no bearing on whether or not people get the day off in the US. Whether that day is Monday or another day isn't important to that point.

However, if you want to argue this, President's Day and Martin Luther King Day also fall on Mondays, bringing the Monday count to 5.5 days. This puts Monday in a very competitive position, giving it the most days off compared to any other single week day.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

I won't argue with that. I feel we get less time off here than the US

That's comparing the service industry to salaried workers, not Korea to the US.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

If the majority of employers do it, than it IS the country and its culture.

Not if a significant minority don't do it. Which is hourly workers and many self-employed people.

Even if a significant minority don't do it. When compared to other countries, who's majorities don't work (or go to school) on their holidays, it says something about the country when they DO work on their own holidays.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The entire developed world considers Jan 1st to be New Year's Day

Then why call it proper New Year's?

If the entire world considers Jan. 1st, then why not just say "New Year's Day", why the "proper"?

I have a question, When is proper Christmas?

Question 2- If you said proper Christmas is on Dec. 25th, how would someone who is Orthodox react to such a question?

Quote:

The lunar calender is not used by anyone anymore. These holidays fall on days denoted by the lunar calender, but the people celebrating them use the Gregorian calender.

And you are factually wrong, people use both calenders. Just because people in Asia also use the Gregorian calender, doesn't mean that they have stopped using a lunar one.

le in Korea and China and Japan know when their lunar birthday is. Calenders printed here have the lunar date on them.

Quote:

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T USE THE LUNAR CALENDER ANYMORE DOESN'T MEAN THAT THESE HOLIDAYS ARE ANY LESS SIGNIFICANT, IMPORTANT, OR LEGITIMATE.

Then why use the word proper? What is the reverse of proper? Are those holidays "improper"? Or are both proper? And if both are proper, why use the term "proper" as a term of clarification?

Quote:

No it wasn't. it was only insulting to you. You were the only one who complained.

Just because I was the only one who complained does not mean I would be the only one who would regard such a statement as ignorant, arrogant, and prejudiced.

Quote:

Those people still think the start of the new year is Jan 1st.

Some of them can handle the concept of two different New Year's. Just as adopted children can handle the concept of two different birthdays. Yes, there is your legal birthday, but the one that may be more significant to you might be your adopted birthday. To refer to the legal birthday as your "proper" birthday would come across as insensitive.

The point is that the term "formal" or "official" is more appropriate than "proper".

Quote:

Again, only to you.

Go tell a Muslim that Ramadan is not the proper New Year, see how they react.

Quote:

it was that the Gregorian calender has no bearing on whether or not people get the day off in the US

4th of July. A date dependent on the Gregorian calender. If Jul7 4th falls on a weekday, you get the day off. If it it falls on a Saturday or Sunday you do not.

Quote:

That's comparing the service industry to salaried workers, not Korea to the US

True enough, I'm just saying before we declare holidays off as standard practice and whatnot, all facets of the American workforce should be taken into account.

Quote:

But again, to call it cultural is a bit tricky when you have service-industry people all over the country working away. It's a holiday for some. It's a business opportunity for others.

akcrono

Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:46 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

The entire developed world considers Jan 1st to be New Year's Day

Then why call it proper New Year's?

If the entire world considers Jan. 1st, then why not just say "New Year's Day", why the "proper"?

Because there are 2 New Year's Days, the author wanted the distinction to be certain.

Steelrails wrote:

I have a question, When is proper Christmas?

Depends on the religion, since we're not referring to a specific day in the name of the holiday.

Steelrails wrote:

Question 2- If you said proper Christmas is on Dec. 25th, how would someone who is Orthodox react to such a question?

Depends on how sensitive they are. Christmas is recognized in many places (including the US), as Dec 25th by the government. Regardless of how they may feel, secular Christmas is celebrated on the 25th. However, since it's not called "December 25th Day" or an equivalent, calling it "proper Christmas" is inaccurate, and I would agree with you that it could come off as offensive.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

The lunar calender is not used by anyone anymore. These holidays fall on days denoted by the lunar calender, but the people celebrating them use the Gregorian calender.

And yet they never use it when they write dates or make plans. Knowledge does not equal use. I know some calculus, but I never use it.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T USE THE LUNAR CALENDER ANYMORE DOESN'T MEAN THAT THESE HOLIDAYS ARE ANY LESS SIGNIFICANT, IMPORTANT, OR LEGITIMATE.

Then why use the word proper? What is the reverse of proper? Are those holidays "improper"? Or are both proper? And if both are proper, why use the term "proper" as a term of clarification?

Proper in terms of an extremely specific thing, a definition of proper. Lunar New Year isn't improper, its LUNAR New Year's, as the adjective to describe this New Year's is "lunar". You could even call it proper Lunar New Year's if it makes you feel better.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

No it wasn't. it was only insulting to you. You were the only one who complained.

Just because I was the only one who complained does not mean I would be the only one who would regard such a statement as ignorant, arrogant, and prejudiced.

But I've explained why it shouldn't, and you haven't given me a reason why it should; you just bring up unrelated holidays.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Those people still think the start of the new year is Jan 1st.

Both are fine. In my opinion, official is a better adjective. I still think proper is fine and unoffensive.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Again, only to you.

Go tell a Muslim that Ramadan is not the proper New Year, see how they react.

If they use the Gregorian calender, I'd have no problem mentioning it in conversation.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

it was that the Gregorian calender has no bearing on whether or not people get the day off in the US

4th of July. A date dependent on the Gregorian calender. If Jul7 4th falls on a weekday, you get the day off. If it it falls on a Saturday or Sunday you do not.

alongway addressed this earlier.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

That's comparing the service industry to salaried workers, not Korea to the US

True enough, I'm just saying before we declare holidays off as standard practice and whatnot, all facets of the American workforce should be taken into account.

Quote:

But again, to call it cultural is a bit tricky when you have service-industry people all over the country working away. It's a holiday for some. It's a business opportunity for others.

It can be tricky, but if you notice a pattern in one country that's not present in another country, oftentimes its due to a cultural difference. I see fewer salaried employees get weekend holidays off than I did in the US.

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