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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| So, no, I don't think I am jumping all over the place when I assume Korean laws first pertain to Koreans. Then, depending on the status of the foreigner, their rights will be RELATIVELY determined. They will NOT be treated the exact same though. |
Yes, you are jumping around. But, readers can see where and decide which part of the conversation they want to join in.
When you move beyond the specifics of the OP's case, I'm talking about rights under the law, and I do expect foreigners legally working within Korea to have the law available to them in general the same as it is for Koreans.
Of course, the law itself has special provisions that pertain specifically to foreigners and some specific to citizens only, but in general, again, the Labor Laws, Labor Board, and Courts should be there for expats as well as citizens.
And they are in Korea - just as they are in the nations E2ers are coming from.
And no, I don't want to jump into some obscuring discussion about whether I'm arguing that English or Thai or Urdu for the Pakistanis MUST be used in Korean courts to accomadate the special needs of foreign workers or not...
I expect South Korea to be on par in law with other OECD nations when it comes to workers rights - including foreign workers - and for the most part, Korea has moved a long way into matching those standards. A good bit better than it was when I first went to Korea in the mid-1990s...
Am I arguing expats must be treated EXACTLY like Korean workers in practice or within the law? Of course not...
Readers can see what areas I'm talking about and what you're talking about. I'll stand by what has been written so far -- also because we've moved far from what the OP was asking about and the OP is no longer interested in the conversation... |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| slothrop wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
The noisy wheel does not get the grease; they get replaced with a new wheel.
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confucius say... 'the noisy wheel that is spare tire(on a one year contract) does not get the grease; they get replaced with a new wheel.'
hehehehe
actually there is a korean saying that translates as 'the baby who cries the loudest gets the most milk' |
Yes, but FT's are not considered human for the most part. Something between mascot and domesticated pack-mules.
When Koreans cry about the FT, you can bet they get attention.
When FT's cry about anything, they can expect to be shunned at least or
replaced at most. |
That type of statement (mostly the bolded part) is completely over the top and completely innacurate. All it does is inject the discussion with yet more high emotions and shrillness. Seriously....'not considered human' , 'mascots and pack mules'.
It is typical of what tends to happen here with these types of debates.
As for the OP, Schwa is right that the OP did not comment after the first post this really leaves all commentators here with a painfully brief and one side account to work with. Yet the conclusions some have reached are hilarious.
For the record, what iggyb said in his or her last post makes a lot of sense. I agree with most of it. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Patrick. I see my lame attempt at sarcasm and exaggeration is completely lost on you.
Oh well. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, you are jumping around. But, readers can see where and decide which part of the conversation they want to join in. |
No, I am providing evidence backing up my claims. All you are doing is stating your opinions without any supporting evidence. When I ask you for it, you attack me with ad hominems instead of establishing a basis for your argument. It was Joe Boxer, and now you.
Put up or shut up. When you make a claim, yes provide supporting evidence. Readers can see the lack of it.
| Quote: |
| I do expect foreigners legally working within Korea to have the law available to them in general the same as it is for Koreans |
If you are legally working in Korea, you are legally working under different laws, so I don't see how you can then later expect those laws to magically change to be the same as a native Korean.
Koreans don't have to get a visa to work in Korea. Foreigners do, and that there is a whole set of "general" laws which apply to foreigners and NOT to native Koreans just like back in your home country you have laws that protect you as a native of your country which foreigners cannot benefit from.
One big example is the right to vote and influence how laws are to be judged and administered. If you commit a crime as a foreigner you can be deported, but if you are a native, you won't be. Shall I go on?
Expect all you want, but the legal system is not set up to to treat everyone the same. In this case, it would be easier for a foreigner to get a new job and work for another employer. For the native Korean, they would have a mark on their record which would be harder to expunge.
| Quote: |
| Courts should be there for expats as well as citizens. |
Who says? This is not only an added expense, but how do you cater to all the foreigners? They are not expats, they haven't given up their nationality. Until they do, they are foreign workers who have to leave after their contract period is up as opposed to being able to stay in the country like a native of that country.
Do the courts now have to hire Spanish translators to deal with Spanish speakers? Do they have to hire Thai translators, Japanese translators, etc....?
It would be nice if they could. It would be convenient to have the law on our side, but we are not citizens. We are second class entities. Whatever you want to call it, we are not going to have the same rights under the law as a native of that country.
In this case, a foreigner has been compensated for their work, and they have been released to find work elsewhere. This is much fairer than remedies natives probably have to put up with.
When you jump to conclusions without any evidence to back you up and state foreigners are not being treated equally, you come off sounding like a teenager who says they have unfair chores around the house. The parents can easily turn it around and show them the money they are earning to support the family and hours of work they put in to get that money.
Do you honestly want to be put in the same class as a native Korean employee and be expected to perform to the same level? If you do, you ought to move up to F visa status, become fluent in Korean, and then you will be treated in relationship to your status. This is what I mentioned earlier.
But no, as an E2 visa holder, in general, you DO NOT have the same rights as a native of Korea and you shouldn't. You are a glorified tourist who is able to earn money solely on the premise you speak English as a native language. Show some other credentials and then move up the ladder if you want more recognition. It's that simple.
| Quote: |
| I don't want to jump into some obscuring discussion |
Too late, I already brought it up. What's this "I will repeatedly jump to conclusions but not support my claims" stance you have? Why are you even posting on this thread if you aren't going to contribute anything to back up your claims?
I can make conclusions too, all hagwons pay severance. That doesn't mean it's true, and it doesn't provide any useful purpose unless I can establish some basis to believe it is true.
| Quote: |
| I expect South Korea to be on par in law with other OECD nations when it comes to workers rights - including foreign workers - and for the most part, Korea has moved a long way into matching those standards. A good bit better than it was when I first went to Korea in the mid-1990s... |
Oh, so now you want to ignore your other assertions and add a new one. Korea is now treating its foreigners worse than other countries. Where is your evidence to back up this claim? Or, do you refuse to enlighten us on this too?
| Quote: |
| Readers can see what areas I'm talking about |
You are not giving any areas to examine. You are saying we must all drive on the left. I am asking you which country are you referring to. You refuse to cite a country that supports your claim. If you just stated London or Japan, then I could understand where you are coming from. And unfortunately, since you drive on the right in Korea, maybe people in those 2 countries shouldn't be given a driver's license as easily as people from countries who already have experience driving on the right.
Do you see now how things are relative to the foreigner (and this has NOTHING to do with the native)? Yes, language matters. Yes, experience matters. Your status matters. All of these are taken into account when being judged.
You have offered nothing to support your claims and I have exhausted many avenues to refute my own position, giving you the benefit of the doubt.
| Quote: |
| I'll stand by what has been written so far |
Ok fair enough. You stand by the unsubstantiated conclusions, lacking in premises or evidence. This was not what I was hoping for, but if you feel you have proven your case consider this a win. Job well done.
If anyone wants to provide evidence and discuss this further I would be happy to see where a teacher was able to sue a school and win more money after they were fired, paid in full, and given a letter of release on an E2 visa.
This is what the original poster appears to be asking about, and that is what my comments were directed at seeking. 2 people have tried, and neither have succeeded in providing this information requested.
Good luck to the third poster. I anxiously await your E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E.
Last edited by YTMND on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Yes, Patrick. I see my lame attempt at sarcasm and exaggeration is completely lost on you.
Oh well. |
That was not sarcasm or if it was it was poorly presented sarcasm.
What you did was think up the most provocative exageration you could come up with and posted it for shock value.
The last sentence of your post was sarcasm (the bit about how a FT complaint would be treated), the preceding part was just stupid and meant to stir the pot. It was also a complete exageration, esp the use of not human...but hey if you thought it was sarcasm no problem. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok fair enough. You stand by the unsubstantiated conclusions, lacking in premises or evidence. |
--sigh--
Yes, and I believe readers will see how you jumped all over the place throwing up items that did more to obscure the conversation by jerking in other directions and then claiming you were the one being logical and PROVING your point.
I am perfectly satisfied leaving it up to future readers...
Last edited by iggyb on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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You are unbelievable.
Give it a rest. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a he. I would offer proof, but Dave might ban me... |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Ok fair enough. You stand by the unsubstantiated conclusions, lacking in premises or evidence. |
--sigh--
Yes, and I believe readers will see how you jumped all over the place throwing up items that did more to obscure the conversation by jerking in other directions and then claiming you were the one being logical and PROVING your point.
I am perfectly satisfied leaving it up to future readers... |
I am sorry, I don't see a person's name. Were you trying to substantiate your claim by giving me a teacher's name or moniker? A case number perhaps?
Please take your post, have it translated by one of the many translators who work for the Korean government to ensure equality between foreigners and natives, and then maybe I will be able to see a name and amount this person was awarded in excess of their final pay from a school that fired them (on an E2 visa)  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Yes, Patrick. I see my lame attempt at sarcasm and exaggeration is completely lost on you.
Oh well. |
Sarcasm and exaggeration tend to not add anything relevant or of value to a discussion.
They simply 'stir the pot' and encourage derailing of said thread.
Back on topic...the OP needs to move on. Given that s/he hasn't posted again one is inclined to think that after the OP calmed down s/he realized that the school did have 'just cause' and decided to keep quiet. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Yes, Patrick. I see my lame attempt at sarcasm and exaggeration is completely lost on you.
Oh well. |
Sarcasm and exaggeration tend to not add anything relevant or of value to a discussion.
They simply 'stir the pot' and encourage derailing of said thread.
Back on topic...the OP needs to move on. Given that s/he hasn't posted again one is inclined to think that after the OP calmed down s/he realized that the school did have 'just cause' and decided to keep quiet. |
Precisely. What was said by wayguk contributed nothing to the thread. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: |
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This whole thread is already a huge derailment.
Where is the OP in all these discussions?
I'm beginning to think this is just another troll thread.
But if it makes you two feel better, I withdraw my previous statement.
and I replace it with this:
FT's complaints are not viewed in the same manner, nor are they treated in the same manner as those made by Koreans.
And I add my sincere and humble apology. |
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Joe Boxer
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Location: Bundang, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Remember when I got ganged-up on (and apparently knocked-out), on page 2?
I had claimed three things:
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
As foreign teachers, we have rights. If you don't understand the rights, then look up Korea Labor Law. If you feel your rights have been violated, and you wish to be advised and represented, CALL A LABOR LAWYER.
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| Joe Boxer wrote: |
| If the OP was terminated then he should have received a letter of termination. SCHOOLS DO NOT WANT TO GIVE THESE! The letter must provide a reason (just cause) for dismissal. |
| Joe Boxer wrote: |
...he should sue for wrongful dismissal, if he was terminated without just cause. A favorable judgement could mean re-instatement, but usually it's a cash settlement.
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Then ttompatz cited Labor Law articles that showed that an employer does not have to give 30 days' notice nor 30 days' pay if firing an employee that has worked for less than 6 months.
BUT THE EMPLOYER MUST STILL GIVE JUST CAUSE!!!
And if the employer can't prove just cause???
He can be sued.
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| Quote: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:54:23 +0900 (KST)
Dear Joe,
I would like to reply to your questions as follows:
1. Is it possible for a teacher that is on an E2 visa for less than 6 months to sue a school for unlawful dismissal (dismissal without cause)?
==> Yes, native English teachers can sue their schools for unlawful dismissal or other unfair treatments.
It does not matter how long they have worked. Even for a foreign teacher who just finished one month and was dismissed,
he/she can take a legal action justifiably.
2. Has an E2 visa teacher ever won?
==> Yes, I have more than thirty cases.
3. Has an E2 visa teacher with less than 6-months sevice ever won?
Yes, I have won such cases a lot.
4. What are typical winnings? Reinstatement and lost wages?
Mostly, the teachers get compensation.
Secondly, they got back their job and lost wages.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me.
with best regards,
bongsoo jung
labor attorney |
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^ It's not names, but I hope that EVERYONE can see that the above e-mail (received hours ago) proves my claims to be true.
If anyone doubts the authenticity of the e-mail, I will PM the labor lawyer's phone number. You can call him during office hours and verify.
| YTMND wrote: |
| Have you sued after being paid, given a LOR, and on an E2? |
Yes.
I brought it up on the first page (I was referring to my own case).
So, besides today's e-mail from the labor attorney, you have my experience, if you take me at my word.
I'll go one better, though. I have a copy of my case file, and if anyone wants to view it, PM me and we'll meet me for coffee in Migeum (you're buying). And no, that's not me being a tough guy challenging anyone to meet in person. I just don't want there to be any doubt.
PLEASE ACCEPT THE FOLLOWING AS FACT:
- Your employer must have just cause when terminating your contract, even if you have worked for less than 6 months.
- ESL teachers with less than 6 months' employment have successfully sued their employers for termination without just cause.
- If you are unsure of whether you have a case, you can contact a labor lawyer for free.
Thank you. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Even for a foreign teacher who just finished one month and was dismissed |
This indicates the person doesn't understand the premise. After 1 month, if you get a notice of termination, you still have 1 more month. So, the minimum would be 2 months.
| Quote: |
2. Has an E2 visa teacher ever won?
==> Yes, I have more than thirty cases. |
Were those in the 30 cases all foreigners? Were any of them foreigners?
Which case, if there are 30, is closest to an E2 visa holder who works for a school, is fired, fully paid for their work, and given a release letter?
Should be fairly easy to explain the specifics. Just one case.
| Quote: |
3. Has an E2 visa teacher with less than 6-months sevice ever won?
Yes, I have won such cases a lot. |
Same comment and question as above.
| Quote: |
4. What are typical winnings? Reinstatement and lost wages?
Mostly, the teachers get compensation.
Secondly, they got back their job and lost wages. |
The premise is that the teacher was already compensated for their work. The only thing they are challenging is this "just cause".
I don't consider getting a job back a good resolution for an E2 visa holder. I question whether or not this person is referring to E2 visa holders or Korean citizens in different fields.
| Quote: |
If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me.
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Yes, please answer this question sir:
Which case of yours is closest to an E2 visa holder who works for a school, is fired, fully paid for their work, and given a release letter?
Please give us the details.
| Quote: |
| proves my claims to be true. |
It shows you don't know how to ask the important questions. I am still looking for the smoking gun that addresses my question as it pertains to "just cause". This is what I was talking about back since page numero uno.
| Quote: |
| I brought it up on the first page (I was referring to my own case). |
I don't quite see this. What I see closest to a case is your references to a sticky thread (which I scanned 5 pages of and none of the comments addressed what I have been seeking) and a quote you gave by attorney Brendan Carr.
What exactly is "your case" please detail it out for us. What are the specifics?
I see you mentioned, "In a particular case that I was involved with in 2004, the teacher was offered reinstatement, or 10 million in lieu."
By "the teacher" do you mean you were "the teacher" or you were helping "the teacher"? If they were offered reinstatement were they paid in full after they were fired or was money held from their pay before getting fired?
If it was 10 million won or reinstatement, what was the school's reason for not reinstating before the suit? What are the specifics?
After that, someone stated, "Until I see proof of what you just claimed, I have to assume you aren't being accurate. In fact, I would say you are just making it up."
Oh, that was me. I am still looking for the proof.
| Quote: |
| I have a copy of my case file |
Would it describe details such as the reason why the school didn't want "the teacher" and then offered reinstatement? What were the specifics?
Second question, if you had this copy all along or can give the specifics, why didn't you just do that in the beginning? I don't see why 5 pages later now you decide to offer up a miracle copy.
Why do people have to meet you in person, you can't scan parts of it (darkening out any personal names and such so that the essential details remain intact)?
It sounds more promising, but I am curious of not only the school's stance but also the courts stance why they chose 10,000. I only have other teachers' accounts and they didn't fit the parameters of an E2 visa holder who was fully compensated before being fired. |
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