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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: |
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But isn't the 수능 25% English? (That's what I heard.)
The SAT in America is English and math.
The 수능 is Korean, English, math, social studies, and science.
(So maybe the 수능 is just 20% English? Or maybe different categories are given different weight?) |
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Bailsibub
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Apparently, some educated and powerful Koreans have no problem with it. SERI is the economic research arm of Samsung. And as you point out, Samsung is no joke! Nevertheless, it's your lot that are making the comparison |
You didn't address the issue- Is it appropriate to compare two city-states, which are former British colonies and trade hubs (city-ports) with the sizable nation of Korea?
I don't give a hoot if Samsung thinks it is appropriate.
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| I said that your action was ignorant, i.e. being ill-informed on a serious issue but still making claims as if you are an authority. |
And who are you? The Lord High Executioner of English Education?
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| No, it's just empirical evidence (produced by Samsung, no less) indicating that Koreans have the lowest communicative competence in Asia and that it, in turn, is markedly affecting large amounts of investment from foreign companies. But that's no biggie, right? |
As mentioned- The study is dated, the two countries cited in the comparison are city states, all of which have had far longer ties with Western nations either in trade or as colonies, furthermore there aren't that many nations in NE Asia. Saying Korea is 'dead last' could be rephrased as "in 6th place".
Also, I'd submit that it is foreign business barriers that are far more of a reason for companies not to invest here than "Koreans not speaking in English". Frankly, that Samsung article sounds like something of piece designed to push a certain directin.
Lastly, they are so deterred that the FTAs were signed last year. |
Look, I called you out on your opinions, and you asked for evidence proving otherwise. I provided evidence in the form of factual research that contradicts your opinions. The research, which was performed by a company you supported in your earlier comments to me, provides facts that reveal something entirely different from your opinion, so you are just going to have to deal with it. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:18 am Post subject: h |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
But isn't the 수능 25% English? (That's what I heard.)
The SAT in America is English and math.
The 수능 is Korean, English, math, social studies, and science.
(So maybe the 수능 is just 20% English? Or maybe different categories are given different weight?) |
There is English on the test, but there is no speaking. It only tests grammar, reading, and listening. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bailsibub wrote: |
Look, I called you out on your opinions, and you asked for evidence proving otherwise. I provided evidence in the form of factual research that contradicts your opinions. The research, which was performed by a company you supported in your earlier comments to me, provides facts that reveal something entirely different from your opinion, so you are just going to have to deal with it. |
Your research is out of date. I could hand you research from 1987, doesn't make it relevant.
I don't "support" Samsung. I said that their results indicated that they had succeeded. Their paper may or may not be accurate. I don't look for great things from the Samsung business research arm, the same way I don't expect great insights from Johns Hopkins' basketball team. You're basically saying that because I think Johns Hopkins is a great medical school, that any paper that comes out of there I must support, and that anything affiliated with their university must be gold.
That's stupid.
But go ahead rely on surveys with data from 2005ish before we really got to start seeing the results of the English programs and the boom of the industry. Those were still in the "wild days" before you had things like bans on private lessons and such.
In the end- Your data is from the mid-2000s, may be in service of a corporate agenda, and compares a nation like Korea to Singapore and Hong Kong for English ability.
If you are unable to see the potential flaws in that analysis then you are either lying to me and yourself or just moronic.
QUESTION- Is it appropriate to compare the English ability of the former British Colony, Financial hub of a city-state of Hong Kong to the nation of Korea? I think the answer is no, that's why I think the results are misleading, whether they came from Samsung, Harvard, or Deadbeat Community College. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| Bailsibub wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Where exactly is this evidence that their system is a failure? |
Here.
The Hong Kong Political and Economic Risk Consultancy rated South Koreans as having the lowest English communicative competence across Asia (SERI, 2008).
In 2005 South Korea lagged behind all East Asian countries in luring global companies. Hong Kong and Singapore had drawn 1,167 and 350 regional headquarters respectively, whereas South Korea attracted only 11 according to reports by SERI (2008), spurred by the fear of foreigners of an inability to communicate with South Koreans.
from Hadzantonis, 2010, Negotiating Spaces, Routledge
This is empirical research, which is very different from opinion (what you are writing). But go ahead and keep on ignorantly posting about things you know nothing about. |
Hmm using data from 2005 I see. Could it because other later data doesn't bear out your claims?
http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20120726001152
Why yes yes, so it would seem.
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In 2011, the Netherlands topped the list with an average score of 100 followed by Denmark and Singapore with 99 and Belgium and Austria with 98.
Hong Kong ranked the same as Korea. North Korea ranked 80th with a 78-point average, with China and Taiwan both at 92nd with 77.
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(bolding mine...bolded because Hong Kong was one of the examples used above in the 2005 data) |
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Bailsibub
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Hong Kong was one of the examples used above in the 2005 data
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The data mentioning Hong Kong was from 2008. Read this again: Hong Kong and Singapore had drawn 1,167 and 350 regional headquarters respectively, whereas South Korea attracted only 11 according to reports by SERI (2008). By the way, that is five years ago if you are still having problems figuring out dates.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Could it because other later data doesn't bear out your claims?
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No, I used one research article because that was all that was needed to blow Steelrails opinions out of the water.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20120726001152
Why yes yes, so it would seem.
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In 2011, the Netherlands topped the list with an average score of 100 followed by Denmark and Singapore with 99 and Belgium and Austria with 98.
Hong Kong ranked the same as Korea. North Korea ranked 80th with a 78-point average, with China and Taiwan both at 92nd with 77.
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Your data, Urban Myth, proves that Koreans increased their TOEFL scores. Like Steelrails, you are using it as use a red herring (increasing test scores) to draw attention away from the widespread inability to interact and negotiate difference, which is supported by empirical research done by Samsung. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| NQ wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| 4. Anti- foreign attitudes: If you believe your teacher is somehow racially inferior to you or that you do not need to respect them, then it becomes almost impossible to learn anything from that person. |
I'd submit that there is a noticeable amount of both subtle and overt attitudes that Koreans are racially inferior that is communicated by some NETs.
A lot of it is unintentional, but it does happen. Heck how many times do people just start speaking English at some Korean behind a counter, expecting to be served? Just as you pick up on the subtle racism directed at you, they pick up on your subtle racism directed at them, and sorry, but a lot of people who claim that they don't do that, do do that.
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How is it being racist when you're speaking English to a Korean? Like maybe you don't know Korean and you only know English, so you're trying to communicate with the other person in the only language you know how to. Actually maybe it's racist if you spoke Korean to the Korean behind the counter, as you expect them only to know Korean and have no knowledge of English. It can work both ways.
Honestly, it's the education system and the Koreans' own attitudes about anything foreign. It's all about passing the test, which is that stupid multiple choice test in high school. So automatically the focus is on reading for the most part.
And about the foreign thing, yeah anything foreign is seen as some sort of threat on their nationality. Also, those kids that do know English purposely screw it up to not look better than their peers or to not succumb to the scumbag foreigner. It's their own attitudes which are to blame. Us NETS are trying to make them speak, but we're looked down as third rate citizens and we don't have much ability over students' marks. My own co-teacher sabotages my efforts to teach the class by insulting me in Korean to the kids. Like how am I supposed to maintain control with stuff like that going on? Add to the fact that there must be a worksheet or a handout all the time as well.
Who cares if they can't really speak it?? The focus is on reading and writing anyway. They have no reason to be angry.
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Those Koreans need to focus their anger on the lazy Korean teachers at elementary/middle/high school who spent their energy on thwarting native teachers' attempts to get them to actually do some learning.
Instead many native English teachers are confronted by appalling attitudes in the school system such as it's fine for Korean students to disrespect the waygugin teacher because after all, they're waygugin aren't they?
So the students can talk in Korean over the foreign teacher, play with each other, stroke each others' hair, draw pictures, eat snacks and try to use their mobile phones.
My first public school job was like that and the other foreigners in the neighbouring elementary and high schools noted the same thing. We all had a lot of experience in other countries but we were treated like people who were out her for a gap year.
That's right - the mentality of most of the Koreans we worked with was like that. We were professional, we wanted the students to learn. Most of the Korean co teachers I had in 3 yrs of public school teaching wanted me to handle the class by myself so they could go and sleep during classtime.
When I did activities they complained that I was playing games - which I wasn't. When I made the students speak in English they complained that English class time with the foreigner was supposed to be fun.
When I handled all the discipline myself and still managed to teach fast, informative classes I realised that only a certain percentage of my students would benefit as most of them had been encouraged by Korean society not to take a foreigner seriously and so any attempts at instilling respect were bound to fail most of the time. The worst thing is the Korean teachers fostered bad attitudes.
This goes on everywhere more or less and is a key reason why many Korean school students leave school with 'I'm fine thank you' and nothing else. Meanwhile I spoke functional French from less years of French learning at school and could live and work in France because of my French language capabilities.
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^^this says it all |
Specify insulting you to the kids. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| I don't have time to read 5pgs of posts...but isn't the English ability poor here BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOBODY TO PRACTICE ENGLISH WITH? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| No, I used one research article because that was all that was needed to blow Steelrails opinions out of the water. |
Please enlighten me as to how data from 2005ish comparing Korea to Hong Kong/Singapore blew my opinion out of the water?
ANSWER THE QUESTION- Is it appropriate to compare Hong Kong, a former British colony, financial hub, and city-state to the nation of Korea?
Your article hinges on the answer to that question being "yes". But anyone with a modicum of critical thinking would realize that it is completely inappropriate to compare Singapore/Hong Kong to Korea.
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| Like Steelrails, you are using it as use a red herring (increasing test scores) to draw attention away from the widespread inability to interact and negotiate difference |
My empirical data is the ability of Korean companies to be competitive in electronics, automobiles, shipping, construction, nuclear energy, etc. If they were unable to interact or negotiate they would not be global players in those industries
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| Hong Kong and Singapore had drawn 1,167 and 350 regional headquarters respectively, whereas South Korea attracted only 11 according to reports |
Again, Hong Kong and Singapore. You could at least cite nations rather than city-states that have been historical ports for 100 years.
Seriously dude, as an exercise in critical thinking, can you look at what you cited and conceive of any possible problems with using that data as your assertion? Do you see any potential problems in using data from 2005~2008 to compare Singapore to S.Korea?
If you truly have any critical thinking skills, you should be able to list at least 2~3 things questionable with that comparison off the top of your head. If you can't, then yes, as I said at the beginning, some people are unable to look at the issue without prejudice. |
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