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Israel secretly injected Ethiopian Jew with bith control dru
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young_clinton

Joined: 09 Sep 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:05 pm Post subject:

Titus wrote:

Israel exists to advance the collective well being of Jews.

Yeah, how dare they have a place that they can call thier own.

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:20 am Post subject:

young_clinton wrote:

Titus wrote:

Israel exists to advance the collective well being of Jews. I'm completely supportive of what Israel is doing here. When I say Israel is a fascist ethno-state I am not using the term as a pejorative. Liberalism is ethnic suicide. When Israel works to diminish the TFR of some segments and increase the TFR of other segments it is deciding who it will be in the future. In the former West we don't make these decisions. Our nations will be whoever shows up.

Yeah, how dare they have a place that they can call thier own.

We (America) seemed to have made out pretty damn good with 'whoever shows up'.
If America is failing its because our leaders have failed us and we as a collective have not called them on it.
Israel is technically a Jewish state but it has half a million or so Arab citizens who participate in the government.
Israel is unique. I don't think one can use Israel as a blueprint for anything else. Planned states have failed (USSR being one).
In the end you're as strong as the people and by extension whom the people choose to lead.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:08 am Post subject:

sirius black wrote:

young_clinton wrote:

Yeah, how dare they have a place that they can call thier own.

We (America) seemed to have made out pretty damn good with 'whoever shows up'.

Really?
Texas really went down hill when the government wouldn't stop all the illegal immigration. Eventually the immigrants and their descendants outnumbered the locals and started calling for independence. But the Federal government obviously didn't want Texas to break away, so they started a war over it. And that's how Mexico lost Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, and California.
So while I completely reject the idea of ethnic/racial discrimination against current residents of Israel (and territories it occupies), I don't blame any government for wanting to limit immigration, much less taking in "whoever shows up".

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:42 am Post subject:

My post is about America. Not Mexico for a start. The FACT is America has done pretty damn good taking whoever comes in. I'm not an advocate of not controlling immigration. A nation obviously has to. America has controlled immigration to varioius degrees over its history. The point that you either ignored or did not understand was that we took in a variety of peoples of all socio-economic-ethnic levels and prospered magnificently. We may or may be unique but the FACT is that America prospered.

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject:

Quote:

We may or may be unique but the FACT is that America prospered

But you seem to imply that America did just accept 'anyone who showed up,' but this is not the case. At various times the US put up barriers to stop Catholics, Chinese, and non-Europeans, respectively. Since the 1965 Immigration Act, there have been no barriers on national origin, so that soon, the US will soon be a country without any one dominant ethnic group. Whether this results in unbridled prosperity or conflict remains to be seen.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

The question that I have and is not fully answered in the article is why? The article alluded to 'controlling birthrate' but why would they want that?

Well, some of the women probably did want small families on their own accord. As for any coercion that may have taken place...

Quote:

Speaking to reporters on an episode of Israel Educational Television�s investigative show �Vacuum� that aired on Saturday, several immigrants described the intense pressure placed on them to keep their families small. The women claimed Israeli representatives from the Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) and the Health Ministry told them that raising large families is especially difficult, that it is for hard people with many children to find work and support their families, and that many landlords would not be willing to rent apartments to large families.

Gal Gabbai, the show�s anchor, reported that in the past decade, approximately 50,000 Ethiopian Jews have immigrated to Israel. During that period, the birth rate among this community, which has traditionally favored very large families, has plummeted by nearly 50 percent.

So, maybe some genuine concern for the welfare of the families involved. However, it's probably not amiss to speculate that the usual quasi-eugenic mindset was at work here as well. You know: "These third-worlders breed like rabbits. The last thing we need is ten-people-to-a-room, sucking off the public teat. If we're gonna let them in, better make sure we keep their numbers down."

link

I'm not sure how advising people "that raising large families is especially difficult, that it is for hard people with many children to find work and support their families, and that many landlords would not be willing to rent apartments to large families" is somehow "intense pressure".

Nor am I sure how such advice equates to a "usual quasi-eugenic mindset" which you somehow (on the basis of an unsubstantiated vague report that could have used a grammar checker) ascribe to Israel.

Well, we can also throw this into the mix...

Quote:

A hidden camera in a local health clinic recorded a Ethiopian woman being told by a nurse that this shot is given �primarily to Ethiopian women because they forget, they don�t understand, and it�s hard to explain to them, so it�s best that they receive a shot once every three months� basically they don�t understand anything.�

In other words, Ethiopian women are too stupid to understand how to use any form of contraception not administered by someone else. I'm going to assume that this nurse was not speaking for her own uniquely held private opinion here.

Now yes, maybe she really only cares about the welfare of Ethiopian women, and just wants to help them overcome their own supposed ignorance in order to achieve the maxiumum benefit for them as individuals. But, I mean, putting two and two together here, you've got a pretty contemptuous attitide toward Ethiopians, combined with a contraception policy that, on at least some occassions, crossed the line into "coaxing", so I don't think it's totally amiss to speculate about "quasi-eugenic mindset" at work. And note the "quasi" part.

Plus, I wonder. Do Israeli doctors have problems getting Ethiopians to take ALL prescribed medications or treatments? Or is this only a concern with the ones that prevent them from having children?

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Plus, I wonder. Do Israeli doctors have problems getting Ethiopians to take ALL prescribed medications or treatments? Or is this only a concern with the ones that prevent them from having children?

Birth control pills require you to ingest a pill -- preferably at the same time every day -- in perpetuity, not in response to any irritating, manifest symptom which serves as a reminder, but in response to an as-of-yet unreal future possibility, which renders birth control pills distinct from most other types of prescription medication.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:18 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Plus, I wonder. Do Israeli doctors have problems getting Ethiopians to take ALL prescribed medications or treatments? Or is this only a concern with the ones that prevent them from having children?

Completing a course of medication is a problem in every country, regardless of the symptoms. It's particularly bad in India, where patients frequently stop taking antibiotics when symptoms disappear. This gives the bacteria a chance to adapt to the antibiotics and form more resilient strains.

With that said, I don't think the issue is the shots themselves (that is, no one cares that it was a shot rather than a pill), but rather that the way in which they were administered appears malicious.

GENO123

Joined: 28 Jan 2010

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:07 am Post subject:

This story has gotten more attention than it deserves.

sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:04 pm Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

We may or may be unique but the FACT is that America prospered

You are right. We have always had limits of varying kinds on immigration. We have taken in a whole of poor folks from all over the world. The point is that we have had massive immigration since our founding, especially in spurts and for a large part its been the poor, under educated, etc.

You can't run a country forever like that but it helped our country grow. EVERY nation that has ruled its era or been one of the major ones, Roman, Holy Roman Empire, British, Spanish, French empires, USSR and the USA has risen using slave and/or cheap labor. America is no different.
Not saying its right, its just a fact of history.

At some point though you have to change that policy. America started focusing on educated, skilled immigrants in the modern era. As an example, England and America took in fairly large numbers of sub-continent Asians over the last generation or so. England took in a lot of the poor ones, America took in the middle and upper classes for the mots part. England has a lot of Pakistanis, etc. who are in the poor and lower working classes and its causing a lot of problems. Birmingham, England for example and to some extent east and southeast London.

America's sub continent Asians have excelled for the most part, almost to a point where its a stereotype of how well they do academically and in the professions like medicine, engineering and technical fields.

As for America's changing demographics. Its always been changing. We were primarily European based but a lot of the immigration shifted to non Protestant (mainly Catholic and to a lesser extent Eastern Orthodox) and to eastern and southern European peoples (Slavic, Poles, Ukrainians, Italians, etc.) and that has changed how we are as a nation. Later non Europeans.

As you say, not sure where this may lead us. My view is the 'fear' or worry that new immigrants aren't as willing to become culturally 'American'. A hundred years ago, for the most part, immigrants wanted their childrend to become culturally 'American'. Nowadays its not as strong (especially amongst some segments of the Mexican American community for example) which could be socially, culturally and perhaps economically a problem for what we now believe or want to see as 'America'.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:18 pm Post subject:

sirius black wrote:

You can't run a country forever like that but it helped our country grow. EVERY nation that has ruled its era or been one of the major ones, Roman, Holy Roman Empire, British, Spanish, French empires, USSR and the USA has risen using slave and/or cheap labor. America is no different.
Not saying its right, its just a fact of history.

Why should 'ruling one's era' be something to which one aspires? You boast about America's success in defense of your philosophy, but then qualify it with monstrosity. Why is a small, peaceful, relatively homogeneous nation with a reasonable standard of living not enough?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

The question that I have and is not fully answered in the article is why? The article alluded to 'controlling birthrate' but why would they want that?

Well, some of the women probably did want small families on their own accord. As for any coercion that may have taken place...

Quote:

Well, we can also throw this into the mix...

Quote:

Based on the comments of ONE nurse? Are you actually serious? That's not helping your cause any. To sum up your argument. You are taking the comments of one individual and "assuming" (without providing a shred of proof) that this represents the mindset of Israelis/the Israeli government in general.
That's borderline trolling sir. You are better than that.

Come on now. If I were a Canadian doctor and said something along the lines of those comments would you automatically assume the Canadian government shared the same sentiments?

To relate to our own situation here. Foreign English teachers shouldn't be all tarred with the same brush just because some got caught with illegal drugs.

Koreans shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush just because some of our employers have been less than honest with us.

Why does the same thinking not apply to Israel and Jews?

Do you have any solid proof whatsoever that the majority of Israelis/ or the majority of the Israeli government holds a "quasi-eugenic mindset"?

Sure some probably do...but then again you can find those types in countries across the globe. Why then, are these people nutjobs elsewhere but when it comes to Israel, it represents the sentiments of the people/government at large?

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Titus wrote:

[

...When I say Israel is a fascist ethno-state I am not using the term as a pejorative. ..

So it's a compliment and we can take away from this statement that you are a supporter of fascism?

Is this what you are saying?

You want the long or the short answer? The best should rule, men should rule, individuals subordinate to the needs and goals of the kin, bankers/pornographers etc against the wall..

catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject:

Titus wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Titus wrote:

[

...When I say Israel is a fascist ethno-state I am not using the term as a pejorative. ..

So it's a compliment and we can take away from this statement that you are a supporter of fascism?

Is this what you are saying?

You want the long or the short answer? The best should rule, men should rule, individuals subordinate to the needs and goals of the kin, bankers/pornographers etc against the wall..

I'd say that is a yes. Laughing

Anyway nice to have a variance of opinions on the forum.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:28 pm Post subject:

comm wrote:

With that said, I don't think the issue is the shots themselves (that is, no one cares that it was a shot rather than a pill), but rather that the way in which they were administered appears malicious.

When you have a demographic in which:

*65% of households require state welfare to survive.
*Primary school is dropped out of at a rate of over 1 in 4.
*Has such poor communication skills in the primary local language that much of this "controversy" may actually have been driven by them not understanding their doctor.
*Has an atypically high birth rate to start with.

Strongly encouraging -- even pressuring -- them to take short-term birth control isn't malicious, it's rational. If they were to tie down these women and sterilize them, yes, that would be malicious. Being moderately insistent, even pushy, that state-support-reliant voluntary immigrants engage in basic family planning is not. Israel hasn't committed any crime against humanity here; it's sin in this matter is that it has violated western ideology, not that it actually harmed anyone.

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