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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| I don't like it -- it's okay for corporations to default on debt, it's okay for the US government to consider defaulting on debt, but if a citizen makes a strategic decision to go the route of default/bankruptcy it is somehow relevant to their career? What it's really about is applying social pressure / fear to keep humans slaves to the banking industry. |
Although I'm right of center on many economic political issues, I agree with this post. A lot of unethical behaviour at the top. I'm for the small business guy more than the CEO type. The banking CEO's all got a second chance. So, why can't the little guy? (If better protection means a tougher time accessing credit so be it.)
Anyways, it does seem as though some bad credit won't hold you back from some employment back home. But, my original point was that here it does. Sad. Not every parent here can pay their kids university, even if it is more common than back home. Fortuneatly, even with debts, I have a pretty good credit rating nowadays according to the three credit bureaus. |
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Bollocks
Joined: 12 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| What's this about Canadians being able to dumb student loans? I thought they never went away - like ever. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Bollocks wrote: |
| What's this about Canadians being able to dumb student loans? I thought they never went away - like ever. |
Macleans article recently said government wrote them off after 6 years if they couldn't track you down. Can't track you down if you're hiding in a cave, moving around, or gone to Korea.
Had a friend who was older than me in the same work place. He couldn't pay, but kept the same job and address. Couldn't run. So, he got taken to court and was ordered to pay 100 bucks a month which wasn't even paying the interest. Was almost at the 10 year mark before I came came to Korea and he just was waiting to declare bankruptcy. (Use to be 10 but has recently been changed to seven years.) I told him to come to Korea with me. But he was too scared. Boo hoo!! Now, he's probably waiting for his six or seven years of bankruptcy to clear.
I delayed payment for 2 or 3 years under the old deferal program and started paying once I got over here. I don't default because I want a good credit rating should I need to go home.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/03/04/a-hard-lesson-for-taxpayers-2/ |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| All money is the property of the government who issued it. They never lose no matter what happens. Non payment of a student loan really isn't a loss for them. The money just didn't get recirculated to them in the way they hoped it would. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
[
Doesn't hold water? Do you not know any middle aged Korean men? I estimate I have known well over a thousand, as they are my primary students. The thing that really keeps them up at night is the fact that they must leave their job in the early 50's at the latest. Some in their late forties. This is always a focus of discussion in my classes. Your stats only account for retirement age. That doesn't factor in that when they leave their companies, they open small businesses, hence they are not really retired. Their companies force them out, but they continue to muddle through with self employment or contract work. Ever hear the Konglsih terms "Chicken Hof man" or "shutterman"? They even have a phrase describing being forced out of their companies: the "Oh Sa (45) sorrow". Meaning at age 45 you feel sorrow.
Public sector jobs are liked here because the retirement age is normal at 65.
(1)"Mandatory retirement at a very young age, often in the mid 50s, is a defining feature of Korean workplaces. After being forced to retire so early, workers face a long period of low paying and precarious employment either in self-employment or contract work. Not surprisingly, Koreans have working lives that are among the longest in the OECD and cannot fully retire until age 70."
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20110824000784
(2)From the OECD: "Older workers in Korea currently face a long but rocky road to retirement. The National Pension System (NPS) has not yet reached maturity and so many older people have little alternative but to continue working as a source of income. In Korea, older workers effectively retire on average at around 68 years of age from men and 67 years of age for women, which are much older ages than in many other OECD countries. Yet, employers appear reluctant to retain older workers beyond a certain age, often as low as 55. It is common practice among firms in Korea to set a mandatory age of retirement well below the age of
60, which is the norm recommended under the Aged Employment Promotion Act." http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/33906935.pdf
(3)"According to latest research released by the Korea Labor Institute (KLI), Koreans are found to have retired much earlier than their European peers, indicating older workers here will likely face greater financial difficulty after retirement.The state-run institute said Friday that an average salaried worker is allowed to remain on the payroll until they turn 57.4 years-old. But in reality, employees retire at 53 on average. " http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/05/123_110326.html
(4)"Although contractual mandatory retirement at a specified age has been eliminated, or limited, in many Western nations, the practice remains widespread in other parts of the world. In South Korea (henceforth, Korea) most workers are subject to contractual mandatory retirement, often while still relatively young; that is, in the 50s. Korean retirement policies are deeply rooted in the belief by policy makers, employers and
unions that mandatory retirement creates jobs for young workers. In addition, because worker compensation is linked to age, employers argue that the seniority-based wages paid to older workers are excessive. http://www.clsrn.econ.ubc.ca/workingpapers/CLSRN%20Working%20Paper%20no.%2093%20-%20Abstract.pdf
(5)This next passage shows why the retirement stats you posted are not pertinent in determining whether Korean companies force out middle aged workers. "The self employed, particularly males, account for a much larger fraction of the labor force in Korea than in other nations with comparable economic development. Well over half of male Korean workers aged 45 and older are self-employed. Even in the non-farm sector, self-employed workers account for 41 percent of male non-farm workers aged 45 and older. Among male workers aged 65 and older, 49 percent are self-employed. http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/working_papers/2011/RAND_WR834.pdf
You have been in Korea a long time. How can you not know about this, TUM? It is the most important concern of every Korean man who works for a private company. |
(I added numbers to your links for greater clarity.)
1. This comes from a newspaper known best among foreign teachers for printing stories about UFO's, unqualified foreign teachers and sensationalist doom and gloom stories about Korea. Hardly worth the paper it is printed on.
2. This one comes from the OECD so it is a better source but the LATEST data they are using (see the figure below) comes from 2001. Pretty outdated wouldn't you say?
3. The Times is cut from the same cloth as the Herald.
4. Is an abstract and written by the same guy who wrote number 1.
5. Is discussing the differences between self-employed and salary and wage earners which was not what I was talking about. And it actually backs up my point as well.
Here's a quote from number 5
| Quote: |
Among self-
employed workers at least 50 years old, 7.2 per
cent had retired by 2008; among wage-and-salary
workers, 11.4 percent had retired. |
11 percent is not a huge number.
So out of all the links you posted only really one is valid and it doesn't really back up the claim that this is a widespread practice with barely over a tenth of the 50 (or more) year old wage-and-salary workforce retiring at age 50.
Should be more like 90% or 100% instead of 11.4% if your claim is valid.
of course this is five years ago but if you want to raise that objection then it invalidates this link too and we are left back to square 1. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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But as long as we are using Herald and Times links
http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20130423001045&ntn=0
The labor situation is changing and will benefit workers who might be forced out otherwise and has wide political support.
| Quote: |
The committee also settled other pending issues such as readjusting the current seniority-based wage system for older workers if they are given more years to work.
If any dispute occurs between workers and companies during the wage readjustment process to essentially a wage peak system, both parties can request the Labor Relations Commission’s mediation, officials said.
The bill also includes allowing the government to impose penalties on businesses if their employees retire before they reach 60.
The increase in the retirement age was a presidential election campaign pledge of both the ruling Saenuri Party and the main opposition Democratic United Party. |
This is scheduled to be imposed in 2017 though...still a few years off but those workers in their 40's should be able to breath a sigh of relief.
Maybe you can use this article to reassure your clients... |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
[
Doesn't hold water? Do you not know any middle aged Korean men? I estimate I have known well over a thousand, as they are my primary students. The thing that really keeps them up at night is the fact that they must leave their job in the early 50's at the latest. Some in their late forties. This is always a focus of discussion in my classes. Your stats only account for retirement age. That doesn't factor in that when they leave their companies, they open small businesses, hence they are not really retired. Their companies force them out, but they continue to muddle through with self employment or contract work. Ever hear the Konglsih terms "Chicken Hof man" or "shutterman"? They even have a phrase describing being forced out of their companies: the "Oh Sa (45) sorrow". Meaning at age 45 you feel sorrow.
Public sector jobs are liked here because the retirement age is normal at 65.
(1)"Mandatory retirement at a very young age, often in the mid 50s, is a defining feature of Korean workplaces. After being forced to retire so early, workers face a long period of low paying and precarious employment either in self-employment or contract work. Not surprisingly, Koreans have working lives that are among the longest in the OECD and cannot fully retire until age 70."
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20110824000784
(2)From the OECD: "Older workers in Korea currently face a long but rocky road to retirement. The National Pension System (NPS) has not yet reached maturity and so many older people have little alternative but to continue working as a source of income. In Korea, older workers effectively retire on average at around 68 years of age from men and 67 years of age for women, which are much older ages than in many other OECD countries. Yet, employers appear reluctant to retain older workers beyond a certain age, often as low as 55. It is common practice among firms in Korea to set a mandatory age of retirement well below the age of
60, which is the norm recommended under the Aged Employment Promotion Act." http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/33906935.pdf
(3)"According to latest research released by the Korea Labor Institute (KLI), Koreans are found to have retired much earlier than their European peers, indicating older workers here will likely face greater financial difficulty after retirement.The state-run institute said Friday that an average salaried worker is allowed to remain on the payroll until they turn 57.4 years-old. But in reality, employees retire at 53 on average. " http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/05/123_110326.html
(4)"Although contractual mandatory retirement at a specified age has been eliminated, or limited, in many Western nations, the practice remains widespread in other parts of the world. In South Korea (henceforth, Korea) most workers are subject to contractual mandatory retirement, often while still relatively young; that is, in the 50s. Korean retirement policies are deeply rooted in the belief by policy makers, employers and
unions that mandatory retirement creates jobs for young workers. In addition, because worker compensation is linked to age, employers argue that the seniority-based wages paid to older workers are excessive. http://www.clsrn.econ.ubc.ca/workingpapers/CLSRN%20Working%20Paper%20no.%2093%20-%20Abstract.pdf
(5)This next passage shows why the retirement stats you posted are not pertinent in determining whether Korean companies force out middle aged workers. "The self employed, particularly males, account for a much larger fraction of the labor force in Korea than in other nations with comparable economic development. Well over half of male Korean workers aged 45 and older are self-employed. Even in the non-farm sector, self-employed workers account for 41 percent of male non-farm workers aged 45 and older. Among male workers aged 65 and older, 49 percent are self-employed. http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/working_papers/2011/RAND_WR834.pdf
You have been in Korea a long time. How can you not know about this, TUM? It is the most important concern of every Korean man who works for a private company. |
(I added numbers to your links for greater clarity.)
1. This comes from a newspaper known best among foreign teachers for printing stories about UFO's, unqualified foreign teachers and sensationalist doom and gloom stories about Korea. Hardly worth the paper it is printed on.
2. This one comes from the OECD so it is a better source but the LATEST data they are using (see the figure below) comes from 2001. Pretty outdated wouldn't you say?
3. The Times is cut from the same cloth as the Herald.
4. Is an abstract and written by the same guy who wrote number 1.
5. Is discussing the differences between self-employed and salary and wage earners which was not what I was talking about. And it actually backs up my point as well.
Here's a quote from number 5
| Quote: |
Among self-
employed workers at least 50 years old, 7.2 per
cent had retired by 2008; among wage-and-salary
workers, 11.4 percent had retired. |
11 percent is not a huge number.
So out of all the links you posted only really one is valid and it doesn't really back up the claim that this is a widespread practice with barely over a tenth of the 50 (or more) year old wage-and-salary workforce retiring at age 50.
Should be more like 90% or 100% instead of 11.4% if your claim is valid.
of course this is five years ago but if you want to raise that objection then it invalidates this link too and we are left back to square 1. |
You are confusing retired from a company with complete retirement. A guy gets kicked out of his company at 50 and opens a chicken hof. He is not considered retired. He has to muddle through barely scraping by with that small business even though he wishes he still had that nice salary.
Sorry but your reading comprehension needs work. That 11 percent stat you refer to is in a two year window. They took workers aged 50 and up in 2006 and two years later 11% of them were retired. That's actually quite large since 50 is still relatively young.
Every link I posted above states that early retirement from companies happens to a majority of workers. It's often in their contracts. From Rand "One of the most popular explanations for why self-employment can lead to later retirement is compulsory retirement policies, most commonly at age 55, for Korean firms, especially large corporations."
Bash the Herald and Times if you must, but you should prove what they say is wrong. The Times article was just quoting the Korean Labor Institute. Any reason not to believe them? Can you offer a contradiction? Furthermore you contradict yourself. You say that forced early retirement isn't common, yet then you mention a bill before Korean parliament that would put and end to this problem and you wrote that " those workers in their 40's should be able to breath a sigh of relief." Why do you say that they can breath a sigh of relief if it isnt an issue as you claim.
We'll see if this bill is obeyed or not repealed. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| You are confusing retired from a company with complete retirement. A guy gets kicked out of his company at 50 and opens a chicken hof. |
There's some joke here, can't remember how it goes, but basically "all careers end in chicken hof".  |
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