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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| goat wrote: |
Ah, come on, stop it! Enough with your heckling. Stop it! Enough of the silly nonsense. Stop it, now! |
Well its the truth. All you people who rub your eyes and don't wash your hands and touch a door knob are doing the same thing as coughing without covering your mouth.
This isn't about preventing disease. This is about what amounts to a largely symbolic act based on subjective criteria of what is disgusting.
Again, the beneficial effect of covering seems to be so marginal, that the outrage over someone not doing is not justified. What remains is a subjective interpretation of manners.
Koreans would have just as much basis for complaining about Westerners and their nose blowing habits, for example.
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| By covering a cough, you are signaling to others that you are sick and are trying not to spit on them or spread your germs. |
And the Asian face mask thing is??? STILL waiting for an answer on this.
The reason there isn't is because there is a basher catch-22 here. They either have to admit that the wide-spread use of it DOES show consideration (and since it is worn, might well be more effective) OR declare such things as merely cosmetic, which will then prove that their covering their mouth when coughing is merely cosmetic, and thus not worthy of outrage over someone failing to do so. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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SR, the mask is halfway used to protect against other people rather than some gentelmanly, unselfish way to prevent others from getting sick as you seem to think.
When swine flu was going full blast, I saw many people wearing those masks on airplanes. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
SR, the mask is halfway used to protect against other people rather than some gentelmanly, unselfish way to prevent others from getting sick as you seem to think.
When swine flu was going full blast, I saw many people wearing those masks on airplanes. |
Korean+selfless+same sentence= NO |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And the Asian face mask thing is???
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... a good start. They do it to not spread disease, and to not catch it from others. So, still no excuse to keep coughing on everyone.
Also, what is more common? Face masks, or uncovered coughs? Not that many people even wear face masks here it seems. Sometimes yes, but it's either old people, women, or children that were told to wear them. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I've always been fine with the face mask. Not a fan of it in a fashion sense, but for practicality, it's seems to be a good first step. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:02 am Post subject: |
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RE:
Effectiveness of cough etiquette maneuvers in disrupting the chain of transmission of infectious respiratory diseases.
What the paper actually says:
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Cough droplets are centerpiece in the chain of transmission of IRD. During the transmission process, infected individuals expels numerous droplets of different sizes into the air every time they cough. Infectious respiratory pathogens whether virus, bacteria or fungus, are dispersed towards the outside environment when droplets formed in the mucus layer lining the airways of an infected patient are exposed to the high-speed cough airflow.
This increase in droplet numbers should not be used to infer an increased total emitted amount, because the exact relationship between the emitted volume and the measured volume is not known. |
The above is interesting in that the researchers do not even attempt to explain the increased measured difference between the control group and other group conditions. A research project whose very purpose is to measure emitted volumes but cannot explain the relationship of emitted volume and measured volume needs at least an attempt to reconcile the two. Perhaps the control expulsions are going further, i.e. beyond the instrumentation measurements as is clearly stated further in the paper regarding etiquette conditions. Surely the control group and the other groups must have some sort of equivalence of total amount emitted. Failure to even attempt to address this discrepancy is glaring.
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| As the figures indicate, droplets are also diverted in other directions not captured in our measurement. Because of this, our measurements can be used to indicate if there is or not emission of droplets, but they cannot be used to assess the total amount of droplets emitted. |
So, actually this research just tells us that cough etiquette does not stop all transmission. How much transmission escapes cough etiquette is not fully measured and unknown, the volume of transmission is unknown, the direction of transmission is unmeasured, and the distance of expulsion of control or condition groups is not specified/unknown/unmeasured. Hmmm.
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| We agree that practicing any of the recommended maneuvers when coughing may be acceptable during a seasonal influenza. However, when facing a deadly and severe droplet-spread, epidemic/pandemic-prone outbreak, health authorities must consider procedures with higher effectiveness. |
Context is important. Note that the research is about deadly and severe diseases e.g. SARS AI, etc. It is clear the researchers are looking for higher effectiveness. They do not say recommended maneuvers are ineffective, in fact they say they are acceptable in regular day to day interactions but not a reliable intervention for severe and deadly pandemics.
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| Although it remains possible and even logical that transmission is reduced somewhat (some droplets must be captured during those maneuvers), this study was not designed to carry out rigorous measurements of this reduction. Measurement from our study established that all maneuvers, as recommended, are equivalently inadequate at completely blocking cough-droplets, even though we cannot say how much in terms of percentage reduction. |
Note again the research does not say inadequate with a full stop; it says inadequate at completely blocking cough-droplets. I don’t think anyone is saying covering your cough will completely block transmission of anything, rather covering your cough provides some reduction and is considerate of those in close proximity.
Hmm, considerate to others in close proximity; why is that such a difficult concept? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
SR, the mask is halfway used to protect against other people rather than some gentelmanly, unselfish way to prevent others from getting sick as you seem to think.
When swine flu was going full blast, I saw many people wearing those masks on airplanes. |
So if its halfway used to protect against others, doesn't that mean the other half is used to prevent transmission?
And if something prevents transmission to other people yet also prevents you from becoming infected (and therefore a carrier), isn't that a good design? And isn't prevention a big part in stopping disease transmission?
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| They do it to not spread disease, and to not catch it from others. |
So its wrong that they are using something that stops them from catching a disease? Are they not supposed to use that and increase their level of risk?
And many people cover their mouth and/or nose not because they genuinely care about not infecting people, but because they just don't want to look bad or have a booger come out and everyone laughs at them.
| Quote: |
| Also, what is more common? Face masks, or uncovered coughs? |
Uncovered coughs, but that might be balanced by the fact that the face mask is much more effective than covering your mouth and is also more uncomfortable, demonstrating a willingness to bear discomfort in order not to infect others.
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| Yeah, I've always been fine with the face mask. Not a fan of it in a fashion sense, but for practicality, it's seems to be a good first step. |
A step we'd be wise to imitate. After all, sometimes people are too slow to cover their mouths or are holding a coffee or something and can't react in time. Facemask is always there.
Maybe we should get some Koreans to get on a thread and talk with a judgmental condescending attitude and sense of cultural superiority about us not wearing face masks like some of the more outraged posters on this thread have done.
Somehow I think that would irk many of us, we might have a few "but you guys do this" lines, and declare the mask to be of limited effectiveness and not worthy of such an attitude. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe we should get some Koreans to get on a thread and talk with a judgmental condescending attitude and sense of cultural superiority about us not wearing face masks like some of the more outraged posters on this thread have done. |
Yeah, but would you defend us, Steelrails? Would you defend us from the onslaught of cultural superiority and condescension, because I'm not sure we could handle it without your help. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Yeah, I've always been fine with the face mask. Not a fan of it in a fashion sense, but for practicality, it's seems to be a good first step. |
A step we'd be wise to imitate. After all, sometimes people are too slow to cover their mouths or are holding a coffee or something and can't react in time. Facemask is always there.
Maybe we should get some Koreans to get on a thread and talk with a judgmental condescending attitude and sense of cultural superiority about us not wearing face masks like some of the more outraged posters on this thread have done.
Somehow I think that would irk many of us, we might have a few "but you guys do this" lines, and declare the mask to be of limited effectiveness and not worthy of such an attitude. |
You've seriously become one of the worst posters on this forum.
FYI, some Koreans do talk like that. Some Koreans do voice their objections to "foreigners" behavior/manners. it happens. It's not shocking.
What is a tad shocking, is how far you've gone as a poster. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wow are you ever reaching with that booger comment. You have managed to take an action that is common in western societies and uncommon here (covered coughs) and first called it ineffective, and now, in fact, covering a cough/sneeze is selfish. Please never have any involvement in debate clubs here. Or anywhere.
Your debating skills are on par with Koreans.
Student: Dokdo is our land!!
Me: (playing devil's advocate) Why is it yours?
Student: Because it's ours!!! (now decided to complain to their mom that teacher is a Japanophile)
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
SR, the mask is halfway used to protect against other people rather than some gentelmanly, unselfish way to prevent others from getting sick as you seem to think.
When swine flu was going full blast, I saw many people wearing those masks on airplanes. |
So if its halfway used to protect against others, doesn't that mean the other half is used to prevent transmission?
And if something prevents transmission to other people yet also prevents you from becoming infected (and therefore a carrier), isn't that a good design? And isn't prevention a big part in stopping disease transmission?
| Quote: |
| They do it to not spread disease, and to not catch it from others. |
So its wrong that they are using something that stops them from catching a disease? Are they not supposed to use that and increase their level of risk?
And many people cover their mouth and/or nose not because they genuinely care about not infecting people, but because they just don't want to look bad or have a booger come out and everyone laughs at them.
| Quote: |
| Also, what is more common? Face masks, or uncovered coughs? |
Uncovered coughs, but that might be balanced by the fact that the face mask is much more effective than covering your mouth and is also more uncomfortable, demonstrating a willingness to bear discomfort in order not to infect others.
| Quote: |
| Yeah, I've always been fine with the face mask. Not a fan of it in a fashion sense, but for practicality, it's seems to be a good first step. |
A step we'd be wise to imitate. After all, sometimes people are too slow to cover their mouths or are holding a coffee or something and can't react in time. Facemask is always there.
Maybe we should get some Koreans to get on a thread and talk with a judgmental condescending attitude and sense of cultural superiority about us not wearing face masks like some of the more outraged posters on this thread have done.
Somehow I think that would irk many of us, we might have a few "but you guys do this" lines, and declare the mask to be of limited effectiveness and not worthy of such an attitude. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| FYI, some Koreans do talk like that. Some Koreans do voice their objections to "foreigners" behavior/manners. it happens. It's not shocking. |
CC, that was my point. That we would be and are absolutely offended when they talk that way to us. Maybe we shouldn't do it to them. That perhaps our lack of certain behaviors comes off just as disgusting to them. And that rather than vilifying each other, we should speak civily to and about each other and not be so judgmental.
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| and first called it ineffective, and now, in fact, covering a cough/sneeze is selfish. Please never have any involvement in debate clubs here. Or anywhere. |
I called it ineffective because it pretty much is. It certainly isn't effective enough to warrant outrage over someone failing to do it because it might get you sick (physical mucous is another matter).
If the standard for selfish behavior in this case is behavior that can make other people sick- I'd say such behaviors as coughing into your hand and not immediately sanitizing qualifies (how many of us engage in that?), rubbing your eyes, mouth, or nose and not immediately sanitizing, and not wearing one of those facemaks (you aren't always going to get your hands up in time to cover).
Since many of us do not engage in those behaviors, certainly at rates similar or greater than Koreans not covering their mouths, doesn't that mean we being hypocrites because we are being just as bad ourselves? And isn't part of "consideration and respect" not hypocritically condemning people for behaviors that are similar to, and just as bad as you engage in yourself?
It's like heroin addicts condemning crackheads. Or a vegetarian condemning someone for eating meat while they wear leather. It's not consistent, logical, or fair.
Or you can continue on in your stone-age belief that you are somehow magically stopping disease simply by covering your hand and happily continue to spread germs via orifice rubbing and lack of sanitization or failing to wear facemasks.
But maybe a thread "Rant: The silence of someone not using sanitizer after they rub their eyes or cough into their hands" Followed up by some ethnic/cultural blasts about your home countries will clue you in. Wouldn't be surprised if the exact things you dismiss me for saying here, you'd say yourself if the shoe were on the other foot. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
SR, the mask is halfway used to protect against other people rather than some gentelmanly, unselfish way to prevent others from getting sick as you seem to think.
When swine flu was going full blast, I saw many people wearing those masks on airplanes. |
So if its halfway used to protect against others, doesn't that mean the other half is used to prevent transmission?
And if something prevents transmission to other people yet also prevents you from becoming infected (and therefore a carrier), isn't that a good design? And isn't prevention a big part in stopping disease transmission?
| Quote: |
| They do it to not spread disease, and to not catch it from others. |
So its wrong that they are using something that stops them from catching a disease? Are they not supposed to use that and increase their level of risk?
And many people cover their mouth and/or nose not because they genuinely care about not infecting people, but because they just don't want to look bad or have a booger come out and everyone laughs at them.
| Quote: |
| Also, what is more common? Face masks, or uncovered coughs? |
Uncovered coughs, but that might be balanced by the fact that the face mask is much more effective than covering your mouth and is also more uncomfortable, demonstrating a willingness to bear discomfort in order not to infect others.
| Quote: |
| Yeah, I've always been fine with the face mask. Not a fan of it in a fashion sense, but for practicality, it's seems to be a good first step. |
A step we'd be wise to imitate. After all, sometimes people are too slow to cover their mouths or are holding a coffee or something and can't react in time. Facemask is always there.
Maybe we should get some Koreans to get on a thread and talk with a judgmental condescending attitude and sense of cultural superiority about us not wearing face masks like some of the more outraged posters on this thread have done.
Somehow I think that would irk many of us, we might have a few "but you guys do this" lines, and declare the mask to be of limited effectiveness and not worthy of such an attitude. |
^Imagine twisting the issue this much just to argue that NOT covering a cough is ok, with the added irony that he admitted to covering his own mouth.
Then starts defending face masks when nobody put them down in the first place. In fact they were called a "good start."
No matter how you slice it, in almost every situation or for whatever reason, covering a cough is just the better way. If there is any "outrage" here, it's from getting coughed/spit on, when the person could have just covered or turned their head.
If Koreans want to harp on certain behaviors of "foreigners" they don't like, they are free to do it. I've heard them do it plenty. I'll support them and probably agree with some of their comments. |
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