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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I suppose because they voted in favour of erasing the border and joining the EU, so if they had their own way things would be drawn back the way they were before Turkey invaded. I'm not sure exactly why the Greeks voted against it but I remember the...prime minister? The leader of their side campaigning against it pretty heavily.
I think it's a good time to do an article search on how things have gone since then. I remember a lot of countries saying at the time that the Turkish vote cancelled out any economic sanctions they had because they had chosen for the first time to rejoin the fold. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| I did some looking. Refreshed my memory. Looks pretty much like what you said. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Me too. Here's what Wikipedia says:
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Reasons for rejection
Divided Cyprus
Enlarge
Divided Cyprus
The main reason for the 75 percent "no" vote among Greek Cypriots in the referendum was the general perception that the Annan Plan was unbalanced and excessively pro-Turkish, and that it would not safeguard Greek Cypriot rights in the north.
Political leaders in both Greek-ruled Cyprus and Greece also influenced the Greek Cypriot vote by strongly opposing the plan. Tassos Papadopoulos, president of the Republic of Cyprus, spoke out against the plan in an emotional speech broadcast live on television. Two days before the referendums, Cyprus's biggest party, AKEL, decided to reject the Annan Plan because of its perceived bias. Greek Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis decided to maintain a "neutral" position over the plan, but the Greek opposition leader George Papandreou (of the PASOK party) urged Cypriots to vote in favour, also because the plan had been promoted by his political party while it was still on power and Mr. Papandreou himself was the foreign minister of Greece during the last PASOK term. Mr. Papandreou even stated that the plan was layed out during his term and that both parts were ready for "a final common agreement" before his party lost the elections. Mr. Papandreou's involvement in conceiving and negotating crucial points of the plan has been a source of controversy in Greece, at least during the referendum days.
Many Greek Cypriots opposed the plan as it meant endorsing a confederal state with a weak central government and considerable local autonomy, rather than the status quo ante of Greek Cypriot majority rule over a minority Turkish population. The plan would have cemented the division of Cyprus into two political entities and safeguarded the presence of settlers from mainland Turkey, both of which were felt to be illegitimate and unfair outcomes. Any solution other than a return to the status quo ante was deemed unacceptable by many Greek Cypriots, and opinion polls conducted over the entire period of the negotiations from start to finish had always shown around 80% opposition to the proposals.
There were reservations over the fate of property or humanitarian disputes, which could no longer be brought before an International Court according to the plan, but would have to be settled by a third party set by the warrant forces. An embargo on weapon imports to the Greek Cypriot side, until the Turkish Cypriot side would be able to fully support itself also caused reservations among Greek Cypriots, in part because it did not apply to the Turkish forces.
On the Turkish Cypriot side, the plan was felt to be excessively pro-Greek, but most Turkish Cypriots were willing to accept it as a means of ending their prolonged international isolation and exclusion from the wider European economy. It was opposed by their leadership, with the Turkish Cypriot president Rauf Denktash actively advocating a no vote. However, his Prime Minister Mehmet Ali Talat favoured the plan's acceptance, while Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan also supported it. Turkey saw a resolution of the Cyprus issue as being an essential first step to eventual Turkish membership of the EU as well as a way of defusing tensions with Greece.
The Grey Wolves (a Turkish right-wing nationalist group belonging to the MHP nationalist party) actively advocated a "no" vote. There were some limited riots caused by the Grey Wolves party activists against pro-ratification supporters during the pre-vote period. At least 50 such activists had arrived in northern Cyprus during the pre-voting period. However, the referendum itself passed off peacefully and was deemed free and fair.
Both sides also had reservations over the fate of property or humanitarian disputes, which could no longer be brought before an International Court according to the plan, but would have to be settled in Cyprus, within the EU.
Although the plan was published on 1 April 2004, it continued to be modified until only 24 hours before the referendum, enabling opponents to argue that people were being asked to vote on something they had not even seen and whose consequences could not be fully analysed. |
All in all quite the boring referendum but I prefer boring to the alternative. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| That's the one. The cure for insomnia. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Has there really been no other redrawing of borders recently due to Islam? What's going on with that place close to Morocco? Sub-saharan Africa or whatever it was called.
Also, if East Timor isn't Muslim that would be the opposite, a reduction in territory of a majority muslim state. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Well, we know it's one more than zero. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Partitioning due to Muslim tensions...
Pakistan broke off from India due to muslim majority..and then bangladesh..not to mention Former russian republics and the Baltics..Chechen muslims have imported the conflict into Dagestan, and so on.
Their plan has not been to partition a country so much as to gradually take it over.
having even a small muslim population is like planting a virus- small at first, but relentless in its spread.
World war three is underway, and it's much more sinister than you could have imagined. When did it start? Fourteen centuries ago, when an insane man named Mohammed who, along with his gang of terrorists, formed the savagely oppressive, dehumanizing religion of Islam.
Through centuries of fanatical conquests (Jihads) and terrorism (when Jihads failed), Islam has metastasized into a modern day world cancer. As we speak, the civilized world is beginning to collapse under it and has no idea how to react. How does one stop a grotesque cult which will settle for nothing less than TOTAL world domination? So while the U.S. looks under every rock for Osama bin Laden, the bloody borders of Islam are closing in on all sides... for in fact every American/British Muslim has the potential to become a bin Laden or an abettor of a bin Laden.
In population, Islam is exploding, the West dying. Islamic warriors are willing to suffer defeat and death, the West recoils at casualties. They are full of grievance; we, full of guilt. Where Islam prevails, it asserts a right to impose its dogma, while the West preaches equality. Islam is assertive, the West apologetic about its crusaders, conquerors and empires. Don't count Islam out. It is the fastest growing faith in Europe and has surpassed Catholicism worldwide. And as Christianity expires in the West and the churches empty out, the mosques are going up.
An impending disaster lies ahead. Unfortunately the U.S. military cannot help for it was always preparing for the wrong war. Soviet or Chinese communism was never driven by such fanaticism. Besides, the Russians stayed in Russian and the Chinese in China. By contrast, the Soldiers of Islam are spreading into all societies... first as simple shop owners and cab drivers, then students, then student activists, then violent agitators and finally assassins and bombers. Look for a mosque to appear soon in your neighborhood.
Islam" does not mean "peace". The actual word means "surrender". Did you know that? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| here's an idea: provide a source. |
No problem.
"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, 'it is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection.' "
Sahih Bukhari, vol. 1, bk. 8, no. 371.
When Mohammed says 'it is better that you should not do it', he is talking about coitus interruptus, and not rape, which was obviously taken for granted.
Granted that rape was pretty much universal during military conflict in those days. However, it is rather worrying when it is sanctioned by the prophet of God's last revelation (as muslims see it), and that such a man is held up as a role model for muslims everywhere.
This is just one verse of many whose legacy can be seen in places like Sudan and Mauritania, where slavery and rape are practised by Islamic militias, and across the Islamic world, where women are treated deplorably. |
Ah, so it isn't in the Koran. Didn't think so. And just one hadith out of thousands. Wow, that's such a ringing endorsment. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
But I guess all that is ok with Bucheon Bum. Tell me, are you fvcking happy to know that your grandchildren may quite likely be forced to convert to Islam in the same way as a Sudanese woman?No-matter which fvcking country they live in.
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Uh yes, because what happens in Sudan impacts my life, and everyone elses life THAT much.
By your logic, you better be careful of xtianity. Why? Because those damn hutus killed 800,000 Tutsis in a span of a month in Rwanda. They weren't spreading xtianity you say?
Neithere were the Sudanese spreading Islam. You think the sudanese would have spared any of those peoples' lives if they claimed to have converted? I doubt it. If only it were that simple and easy. It isn't just religion you nimrod. It's also linguistic differences; the Muslims speak Arabic, other Sudanese don't.
| Quote: |
| Islam" does not mean "peace". The actual word means "surrender". Did you know that? |
It means submission. And it means submission to god.
Last edited by bucheon bum on Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Has there really been no other redrawing of borders recently due to Islam? What's going on with that place close to Morocco? Sub-saharan Africa or whatever it was called.
Also, if East Timor isn't Muslim that would be the opposite, a reduction in territory of a majority muslim state. |
FYI, the all those involved in the Morocco deal are Muslim. Not an issue of religion. It's called the Western Sahara by the way. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Partitioning due to Muslim tensions...
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But what about Croatia breaking away from Yugoslavia? Would that be considered Catholic tension? Since Croatia was the lone catholic region of the country and all.
WHat about Slovenia? Would that be considered the same?
And don't forget Slovakia. Was that due to Xtian tension? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
Has there really been no other redrawing of borders recently due to Islam? What's going on with that place close to Morocco? Sub-saharan Africa or whatever it was called.
Also, if East Timor isn't Muslim that would be the opposite, a reduction in territory of a majority muslim state. |
FYI, the all those involved in the Morocco deal are Muslim. Not an issue of religion. It's called the Western Sahara by the way. |
Yeah, that's the one. Western Sahara. My mind's been full of Mitigation and Remission of Defects Liability for Contractors for the past few hours (translating something) and it didn't come to mind. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| here's an idea: provide a source. |
No problem.
"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, 'it is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection.' "
Sahih Bukhari, vol. 1, bk. 8, no. 371.
When Mohammed says 'it is better that you should not do it', he is talking about coitus interruptus, and not rape, which was obviously taken for granted.
Granted that rape was pretty much universal during military conflict in those days. However, it is rather worrying when it is sanctioned by the prophet of God's last revelation (as muslims see it), and that such a man is held up as a role model for muslims everywhere.
This is just one verse of many whose legacy can be seen in places like Sudan and Mauritania, where slavery and rape are practised by Islamic militias, and across the Islamic world, where women are treated deplorably. |
Ah, so it isn't in the Koran. Didn't think so. And just one hadith out of thousands. Wow, that's such a ringing endorsment. |
As you well know Bukhari is considered the most reliable source of hadiths, and most muslims consider it authentic. It also begs the question of why anyone would make up such a hadith. Moreover, its depiction of Mohammed's attitude towards women is in line with everything else in the man's life.
Why so keen to defend any slights to Islam? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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rapier was talking about Moslems infiltrating Western countries and destroying Western Civilizations. If that isn't rapier's point, then I stand corrected.
I ignored Pakistan and Cyprus because the Moslems ruled those areas for centuries. That is not infiltration as generally understood.
But if you want to quibble, I'll give you the point.
Last edited by Ya-ta Boy on Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Bigverne: probably because he knows a lot of Arabs in person that are perfectly nice.
The other reason is that whenever someone claims something to be 100%, they are generally wrong to a certain extent. All Xs are Ys, there are no exceptions to Z and such statements are suspicious. I'm not even a fan of the religion myself but here it looks like I am because of the erroneous statements people make. You'll notice that I have no conflict with Leslie for example, because he knows that wanting to keep Islamic influence at bay from western civilization doesn't require one to believe that all muslims are terrorists, or will be in the future.
And if everyone here on this forum was all 'Let's bring Turkey into the EU right now!' and 'Where can I make a donation to help pay families of suicide bombers in Palestine?' I would be on their case too. |
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