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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And you have nothing to worry about from any of the above groups if you are legal. Simple isn't it? |
Quite.
Well, not so quite. The last two on my list -- they're the sort of ogres that inevitably cross one's path due to sheer bad luck and despite the best efforts to avoid them. Just as one encounters a mugger in one's own country despite knowing the territory intimately. These people are unpleasant, irrate and potentially worrisome regardless of one's visa classification or legality in Korea. Their entire "tipsy Dr. Jekyll / menacing-drunk Mr. Hyde" shtick is premised on the assumption that any Westerner who wanders within their grasp (their bar, their taxi cab, their turf) is an English teacher, an illegal one at that, and thus someone to be toyed with, intimidated and menaced for the sake of... I'm not entirely sure what. Feelings of national or sexual inadequacy would be my guess.
But you're right. If someone is legal, then all the crackdowns and Daniel Kangs shouldn't cause any sleepless nights. I think people's interest in threads like this is simply because it affects (public perceptions of) the profession and maybe in some cases their own jobs (such as when co-workers are arrested/deported, or Immigration sweeps disrupt class schedules... I dunno). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And you have nothing to worry about from any of the above groups if you are legal. Simple isn't it? |
Quite.
(1) Well, not so quite. The last two on my list -- they're the sort of ogres that inevitably cross one's path due to sheer bad luck and despite the best efforts to avoid them. Just as one encounters a mugger in one's own country despite knowing the territory intimately. These people are unpleasant, irrate and potentially worrisome regardless of one's visa classification or legality in Korea. Their entire "tipsy Dr. Jekyll / menacing-drunk Mr. Hyde" shtick is premised on the assumption that any Westerner who wanders within their grasp (their bar, their taxi cab, their turf) is an English teacher, an illegal one at that, and thus someone to be toyed with, intimidated and menaced for the sake of... I'm not entirely sure what. Feelings of national or sexual inadequacy would be my guess.
(2) But you're right. If someone is legal, then all the crackdowns and Daniel Kangs shouldn't cause any sleepless nights. I think people's interest in threads like this is simply because it affects (public perceptions of) the profession and maybe in some cases their own jobs (such as when co-workers are arrested/deported, or Immigration sweeps disrupt class schedules... I dunno). |
(numbers are mine)
1. However if you are legal, you can simply ignore them, or tell them to get lost. My point was that you have nothing to fear. Let them report you. All you are doing is having a beer and minding your own business. They will look a right fool when they accuse you of being illegal and you haul out your ARC card in front of everybody at the bar. Or if you want you could just say "Look, I'm not an English teacher" in Korean.
2. I agree with you here. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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I've actually heard serious talk about "observant" foreigners(could be anyone chummy with English???) that frequent popular foreigner bars who report on people involved in illegal teaching activities before. I was once warned by a non-bar hopper to exercize extreme caution(concerning what one talks about under the influence) in a certain bar. And that was three years ago.
I didn't realize, until reading this post, how much coin was possible.
Guess that counts out the newbies as pecuniary information hounds doesn't it? |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
Now what are you two fighting about? I was the "baaaaaad vibes" monger that Fidel was referring to!  (wasn't I?  ) Anyway, I was mongering on a different thread, a different topic. My comments above weren't fear-mongering, but just some late-night, sleepy-eyed ramblings about different species of narks. |
I wasn't referring to you per se rather the bad vibe thread, the backlash thread, and the numerous 'watch your back' bogeyman kind of threads. 
As for Mindmetoo,he's just one of those weird nutters that spends an inordinate amount of time on Daves and no doubt the Internet in general. He seems to be stalking me, another guy  I just hope I don't start getting any sexually explicit suggestions from him by PM Sorry not interested, not my thing  Try BBE |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And you have nothing to worry about from any of the above groups if you are legal. Simple isn't it? |
But you're right. If someone is legal, then all the crackdowns and Daniel Kangs shouldn't cause any sleepless nights. I think people's interest in threads like this is simply because it affects (public perceptions of) the profession and maybe in some cases their own jobs (such as when co-workers are arrested/deported, or Immigration sweeps disrupt class schedules... I dunno). |
I'm definitely not losing any sleep over this!
I'm certainly clean, and I'm not even going to any longer be in Korea in a few short days. I have a friend, who although hasn't yet, could very well find himself involved in this, but I'll admit that acounts for only part of my curiousity in all of this.
I admit it, I'm fascinated by this. How is something like English-teaching, on the surface so innocous and uncontroversial, have such a terribly run industry? What I find almost equally as fascinating is how so many expats believe, or at least treat, this kind of industry behaviour as normal,when it's far from it. Imagine we were a bunch of software-testers instead of English teachers. Would we be concerned about what visas other software testers are on? Or about what their educational background is? Would immigration have to go around to software companies to make sure their employers were "qualified" to be doing what they were doing?
Last edited by bosintang on Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And you have nothing to worry about from any of the above groups if you are legal. Simple isn't it? |
But you're right. If someone is legal, then all the crackdowns and Daniel Kangs shouldn't cause any sleepless nights. I think people's interest in threads like this is simply because it affects (public perceptions of) the profession and maybe in some cases their own jobs (such as when co-workers are arrested/deported, or Immigration sweeps disrupt class schedules... I dunno). |
I'm certainly clean, and I'm not even going to any longer be in Korea in a few short days. I have a friend, who although hasn't yet, could very well find himself involved in this. but I'll admit that acounts for only part of my curiousity in all of this.
I admit it, I'm fascinated by this. How is something like English-teaching, on the surface so innocous and uncontroversial, have such a terribly run industry? What I find almost equally as fascinating is how so many expats believe, or at least treat, this kind of industry behaviour as normal. It's far from normal. |
Sadly enough Mr. bosintang, within the English-speaking industry, this behaviour is normal believe it or not. Why?
(a) Hakwon owners who need an English-speaker for the business (and it is a business first and a school second,) which accounts for some of the nonsense that goes on here.
(b) Greedy recruiters who need to fill their quota and are prepared to do so by any means necessary
(c) Greedy expats who can't get a job back home and come over on the expectation of having a "working holiday".
(d) The government of Korea which tolerates this, knowing that if they put stricter standards for the hakwons (like we would have back home) there wouldn't be enough QUALIFIED people willing to come over. Why should they? They've already got much more secure jobs at home.
By no means an exhaustive list but I believe this covers the main points.
It's why I left the industry and now teach in a public school.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:30 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Its not the issue of who is, its rather the issue of who is punished for maybe being.
We all don't need to treated like criminals or substandard individuals. Though considering how people reacted when I first got here and how they do now, YES, there is a change, and yes we are being treated differently. |
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YoungLi
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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How many people here - legitimate English Teachers that is -are furious about the imposters flaunting fake degrees and obtaining jobs in this profession? I don't know about you but I spent over six years in college (4+ years undergrad., 2 years graduate school) and I worked my tail end off in college..... not to mention the tens of thousands of $$$ it cost me. I paid my dues! People obtaining work on fake degrees make me sick! I don't buy it for one minute that this recruiter is totally to blame and these teachers are poor innocent "guys" who deserve to be let off the hook easy. As far as I'm concerned, they can burn in hell for all I care. These imposters bring shame to the profession, westerners in general and to the students they "taught." Where is the OUTRAGE  |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| YoungLi wrote: |
| How many people here - legitimate English Teachers that is -are furious about the imposters flaunting fake degrees and obtaining jobs in this profession? I don't know about you but I spent over six years in college (4+ years undergrad., 2 years graduate school) and I worked my tail end off in college..... not to mention the tens of thousands of $$$ it cost me. I paid my dues! People obtaining work on fake degrees make me sick! I don't buy it for one minute that this recruiter is totally to blame and these teachers are poor innocent "guys" who deserve to be let off the hook easy. As far as I'm concerned, they can burn in hell for all I care. These imposters bring shame to the profession, westerners in general and to the students they "taught." Where is the OUTRAGE |
No offence, but degree or no degree, if professionalism is what you are after, you are in the wrong industry in the wrong country. Move back home or to Hong Kong or the Middle-East. Stay in Korea and most of the rest of Asia and you may as well start banging your bloody head off a brick wall now, because that's going to be the rest of your career. |
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YoungLi
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:41 am Post subject: |
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bosintang wrote:
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| No offence, but degree or no degree, if professionalism is what you are after, you are in the wrong industry in the wrong country. Move back home or to Hong Kong or the Middle-East. Stay in Korea and most of the rest of Asia and you may as well start banging your bloody head off a brick wall now, because that's going to be the rest of your career |
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bosintang, if you feel that way you aren't doing yourself or anyone any favors by staying in Korea. Why don't you move back home or to Hong Kong or the Middle-East!? I read your other posts and you seem to HATE teaching English in Korea, Koreans in general, living in Korea etc....... sooooo LEAVE NOW! Attitude is everything! Your attitude is terrible. Your flipid response, "but degree or no degree" makes me wonder if your degree is fake. |
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Ajarn Miguk
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: TDY As Assigned
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: Odds |
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| YoungLi wrote: |
| How many people here - legitimate English Teachers that is -are furious about the imposters flaunting fake degrees and obtaining jobs in this profession? I don't know about you but I spent over six years in college (4+ years undergrad., 2 years graduate school) and I worked my tail end off in college..... not to mention the tens of thousands of $$$ it cost me. I paid my dues! People obtaining work on fake degrees make me sick! I don't buy it for one minute that this recruiter is totally to blame and these teachers are poor innocent "guys" who deserve to be let off the hook easy. As far as I'm concerned, they can burn in hell for all I care. These imposters bring shame to the profession, westerners in general and to the students they "taught." Where is the OUTRAGE |
Every one of them knew or know what they did or are doing is unethical and illegal.
They simply were or are playing the odds.
The odds have caught up with some of them and will catch up with more.
And yet, some will continue playing the odds.
Why?
Beats me. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| YoungLi wrote: |
| I don't buy it for one minute that this recruiter is totally to blame and these teachers are poor innocent "guys" who deserve to be let off the hook easy. |
I agree. Anyone who claims to have been suckered by a recruiter (with regard to the required qualifications) has not exercised due dilligence. When I first considered coming to Korea to teach, I got on the 'net' and within one minute found out a degree was a legal requirement. It's inconceivable that anyone who has obtained a teaching visa with a fake degree could not know they are breaking the law. |
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waterbaby
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Baking Gord a Cheescake pie
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't forget that the E2 visa rules changed about 3 years ago - before then you only needed a 2 year college degree as a minimum. So I bet there were quite a few confused folk out there for a while when the changeover took place - recruiters, immigration clerks, teachers, hagwon owners etc. There's a lot of disinformation out there, especially on this site. |
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Ajarn Miguk
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: TDY As Assigned
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: Sorry |
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| waterbaby wrote: |
| Don't forget that the E2 visa rules changed about 3 years ago - before then you only needed a 2 year college degree as a minimum. So I bet there were quite a few confused folk out there for a while when the changeover took place - recruiters, immigration clerks, teachers, hagwon owners etc. There's a lot of disinformation out there, especially on this site. |
Sorry, but I don't buy it.
This latest clampdown seems to be about fake degrees.
How can anyone be confused when proffering a fake degree? |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| YoungLi wrote: |
| How many people here - legitimate English Teachers that is -are furious about the imposters flaunting fake degrees and obtaining jobs in this profession? I don't know about you but I spent over six years in college (4+ years undergrad., 2 years graduate school) and I worked my tail end off in college..... not to mention the tens of thousands of $$$ it cost me. I paid my dues! People obtaining work on fake degrees make me sick! I don't buy it for one minute that this recruiter is totally to blame and these teachers are poor innocent "guys" who deserve to be let off the hook easy. As far as I'm concerned, they can burn in hell for all I care. These imposters bring shame to the profession, westerners in general and to the students they "taught." Where is the OUTRAGE |
I save my outrage for important things like child molestation, genocide, and racism. This might piss me off a bit, but OUTRAGE (and the offenders burning in hell) is hyperbole at best and screwed up priorities at worst.
Degrees don't make teachers, but that's one of the conditions that we have to deal with if we want to work in Korea. People get caught breaking the law, they have to deal with the consequences - I have no problem with that. Spending a lot of time in school and racking up a lot of debt, won't make a good teacher, either, though.
Bringing shame to the profession? Foreign hagwon teachers aren't that high on the respect ladder in this Confusian country. Even in my university, there are a couple of tiers for the Korean and foreign teachers.
Bringing shame on westerners? See the previous paragraph.
I hope you were having a bad day when you posted this because, if not, you're not going to have much fun here in Korea and your negativity will show to your students who will be uncomfortable in your classes and believe that all westerners are grumpy. (And it's outrageous that your sourness will reflect on me.)
Don't compare youself to others; there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Relax. Cut a fart. |
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