Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Austin]

The multiple listings under the job description within the EPIK contract must make you laugh! If you do not care for my explanation, why do not you enlighten us as to why the language is so vague?

MLK said it best "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

EPIK does not need to be defended; it just needs to be understood. Challenging other posters' mischaracterization of EPIK is not a defense of EPIK, but an acknowledgment that there are a few people that failed to recognize what EPIK was before they joined.

Just because one individual's experience was not what they envisioned does not negate all of the amazing encounters experienced by the other participants.

No matter how many safeguards that are put in place to protect children, none of them are foolproof. Korea pales in comparison to the U.S in reported problems with sexual predators and teachers having sex with their students in the school system, so how does one recruit equate to a bad EPIK program? If you applied your line of thought to every other educational setting in the world, they would all be disgraceful disasters!

The contract still states that in certain situations temporary housing may be necessary until permanent housing can be secured, so there is no mystery there. They have been candid about the differences that are likely to arise in the interpretation of the contract and how things are fulfilled from the outset, back when it was KORETTA.

An apologist I am not, but I most definitely am a supporter of EPIK! I have been since 1996.

SCSA

[Anda]

It would seem that the Korean EPIK program should not be considered as a place to work because they employed a Pedophile. So that things can be put in prospective lets look at the perfect country.

Here is a good link: http://www.newsminute.com/achristaug2002.htm

*edited by Lemon... Anda, should you wish to provide a link here, go ahead and re-edit*

[schwa]

Mody Ba --

You keep trotting out a couple old vague incidents to 'prove' that epik is some kind of disastrous failure. Thats just silly. Any organization, anywhere, that has had hundreds of employees over the years would have an unseemly tale or 2. If thats the best you can come up with, it seems to speak quite favorably to the program. Epik is not above criticism, but your continued bleatings come across as shrill & not very bright.

[Mosley]

Apologists: Yet once again: EPIK CANNOT get even its minimal goal of 200 newbies a year. Why? Because potential recruits do their homework. Here are the figures again, folks: JET:newbies required=1000 newbies accepted=1000 newbie applicants rejected=c.5000(!). EPIK: newbies required=200 newbies accepted=77(2002) newbie applicants rejected= are you kidding??!! They're desperate for warm bodies!! SCSA, save your breath about how JET"musn't " be compared to EPIK. Pucker up instead....

[Austin]

I am unclear as to why you equate the sheer number of recruits and applicants of each program as relevant in your post.

Facts posted from www.un.org and www.ncela.gwu.edu

1) Japan's population is roughly three times that of Korea's.

2) Japan's total GDP is ten times that of Korea.

3) The per capita GDP of Japan is three times that of Korea.

4) Japan is three times the size of Korea.

5) Japan has been a member of the UN since 1956, while Korea has only been a member since 1991.

6) The reason number five (5) is important is in how it relates to the number of students enrolled in a foreign language. The U.S. college enrollment for studying Japanese is slightly less than four percent (4%), while the U.S. enrollment for Korean is more than one thousand percent (1,000%) less at .0037 of a percent.

The fact is that Korean is not taught in very many schools across the United States, and I doubt that the statistics would be much different in other English speaking countries.

Obviously, when you are going to recruit candidates into any program, there has to be an underlying interest on the part of the participants. Since, universities all across the United States are teaching Japanese to one thousand percent (1,000%) more students than Korean, it stands to reason that they should easily be able to attract one thousand (1,000) applicants compared to the seventy-seven (77) by Korea.

Again, your rational escapes me, and that is why I have repeatedly stated that comparing EPIK to JET does not accurately depict the truth of either program. Since when does the size of a program determine the quality?

I hope the above has helped you see the error of your ways.

SCSA

[The Lemon]

Not to change the subject, but here's a random sampling of the article Anda's linking to:

[Mody Ba]

Well,SCSA.Your quote:"The arc of the moral universe is long,but it bends towards justice".Is that your "mantra",SCSA? Lordy,Lordy,exactly what DOES that MEAN?

And SCSA,"pails" are things to carry water in...something "pales" before something else. Teacher.
Schwa(what a....cunning handle)...apparently you subscribe to the school that if you do not agree with someone the best thing to do is insult them...'shrill and not very bright bleatings".Of course,now,the apologists rants must be "eminently bright and not bleatings at all".. Especially SCSA's "mantra"

Anda(now, what was the major,Anda,was it AGRICULTURE ?)...at least most of your posts show common sense.No,I do not think the pedophile issue alone is enough to brand EPIK a bad program.Your point there is well taken.Of course,there are other reasons.too.As we all know,but which some people do not want to admit.

Go ahead.Defend it.If it improves(I rather doubt THAT)...I will be the first to congratulate them.If you can show me what is REALLY so good about it, rather than making vague, inarguable comments like'EPIK does not need to be defended.It only needs to be understood" .

How many of you guys who are defending it are really qualified to teach English? Maybe, if you are not qualified....maybe it DOES seem like a good program to you.Even then,though....well,I really have a hard time seeing why anyone would try to defend it.

[Austin]

Who said that teachers are infallible? I certainly did not.

Are you sure you want to go there with me?

I rarely make a mistake here. However, you have absolutely no room to comment. Every single post of yours is laced with errors!

Anyway, if you need to take that road, I would be more than happy to proof everything that you post.

The loser in a moral debate will inevitably throw out a red herring to detract from the failings of their stance! Sorry, but the truth shines through your feeble attempts to derail the issue.

By the way, that quote is not mine, but that of MLK.

You are correct in assessing that my view is inarguable, because the truth can not be silenced. Besides, you can not hold a candle to me with the type of responses that you have been posting. Why is it that you have never addressed any of the numerous questions that I have posed to you? Obviously, the answers would reveal the ridiculousness of your view.

Is stating that apples are apples a defense of apples? If you say apples are bad, and I say that some people like apples and some people do not, is that a defense? Furthermore, if a person bites into a bad apple, does that suggest that other people are going to have the same experience? I think not!

SCSA

[Circus Monkey]

Man, I thought that this thread would be okay but it has degenerated.

Thread locked. Will consider opening it in about 24 hours.

CM

[Circus Monkey]

Ka ching! Unlocked for your enjoyment.

CM

[Mosley]

Thanks CM-is that your mug shot, BTW? Thank you, SCSA, for showing me the "error of my ways", due to my faulty "rational"(sic). Of course, when you cited those statistics, which are ever-so-relevant in talking about ESL teaching programmes,you forgot to mention currency exchange rate fluctuations, balance of trade/payments differences, the year each country joined the World Wrestling Federation and the differing lengths of intestines between Koreans, Japanese and Westerners...or, to put it another way...WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!?? Any way you slice and dice it, if Japan can produce a crackerjack teaching programme with excellent benefits and a great teacher support system, all the while maintaining a high level of standardization for 7000(!) foreign teachers, are you seriously suggesting that it's too much to expect S.Korea(an OECD member,BTW, since you're so hung up on world organizations)to do the same for 200-300 native speakers?!
I know what I'm talking about. I spent the maximum 3 yrs. on JET & I've got almost a year under my belt w/EPIK. There isn't a gap between the two-there's a chasm. And that is NOT acceptable!

[Austin]

You claim that the statistics that I used are irrelevant, but insist that the �numbers do not lie!� Well, which is it Mosley?

Every point that I made addressed why the numbers and size of the two programs should not be compared as a factor indicating their relative success, and it was in direct contrast to your false claim that it did.

When you have English-speaking countries promoting relations with Japan for fifty years through exchange, language teaching, etc. and another with a little over ten years, should we be attempting to draw parallels between the two countries language programs?

Why is it that you continue to feel the need to make disparaging remarks? Just because your posts are laced with emotion and lack logic, does not mean that you have to get defensive and feel inferior.

Again, just because you continue repeating �I know what I�m talking about� does not make what you are saying factually true. Sorry Mosley, but it never will.

Why are you comparing the two programs in the first place?

If I ate apples for three years, and then moved and all I could eat were oranges, would that make me a know-it-all about the two fruits? Better still, should the fact that they taste differently be considered unacceptable?

Yes, they are different, hence the different name, language, country, culture, and of course, the experience!

When I traveled to Turkey, I did not go there expecting to find Brazil. One has to wonder why you would join EPIK, if you were looking to find JET!

[long-term-player]

Austin asks - "One has to wonder why you would join EPIK, if you were looking to find JET!"

The answer for many is this - 'we received glossy brochures and in-depth information telling us this program was truly excellent and it was a valuable experience to join a Government run program; Many (some) of us were promised good decent accommodation and decent specified conditions. On this basis some of us who have come from JET or NET (me) acted upon what we thought was the honesty of the words we were told. I don't know about JET, but NET supervisors (Chinese) are VERY HONEST.

The reality is (to some) that what we were told was not the truth. Those of who came here were expecting some degree of transparency and honesty that we received in other Government programs. The contract is so vague compared to NET that I asked many (14) questions and received many written answers. Reality has shown the answer was, in some cases a lie, and in some cases a matter of the local Supervisor doing what he wanted and saying KNUE had not told me the truth in the first place, and then he himself lying like there was no tomorrow.

In my case (I realize I am only one of about 200) all I received this year and last was deliberate lies and non-intentional lies. It just doesn't matter to the Epik supervisors whether they lie knowingly or carelessly.
I no longer believe ONE word that comes from my Epik Administrators.
However, knowing this does prepare you - for you know the answer is the opposite of what you are told.

This is where 'we can compare' Jet Net and Epik. It's called ""honesty"" and it doesn't exist in this program. So if you come to Epik 'looking for something�, just be careful that what you are told - may not be fact.

[Mody Ba]

Yes.I agree completely, long-termer.A lot of it is just plain lies,although they like to pretend the lies are "misunderstandings'"We are a different culture""When in Rome(well,we are NOT in ROME,are we?) do as the Romans do",blah,blah ,blah.

I LIKE Korea(well,most things ,anyway)But let's face it. Koreans are just as capable of lying as any other people in the world.THe people at KNUE and other people connected with EPIK have surely proven the fact that Koreans can lie just like anyone else.

Yes,in my opinion,it is a very nice country and very nice culture.That does not in any way excuse EPIK's lies and manipulations.

And,Doughboy(SCSA)...when you are not babbling about your fruits...apples and prunes and kumquats and all of that....and when you are not baking up a storm in your little kitchen,you might seriously consider the fact that obviously there are more than a couple of people who know the sad truth about EPIK.

[Austin]

What you write and think is neither sad, nor the true, but the opinion of you.

Since there are those that speak negatively about NET and JET, do their experiences equate to either of those programs being factually bad?

If you are going to apply that standard to EPIK, why not be consistent and apply it to JET and NET as well?

According to your "logic," all of the programs are bad! Gee, thank you for that piece of constructive advice.

SCSA

BTW, does the fact that I like to bake make you feel insecure to the point where you feel it necessary to attack me personally?

I have no problem sticking to the issue, but you apparently do.

Perhaps you would like everyone to accept everything you post as fact, or are troubled by the underlying thought that you could actually be mistaken?

I thought name calling was for children and the immature. If you are not a child, what does that make you?