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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Guys, (Gals???),
I've been following the conversation and I am now quite confused. Can you help me out?
I'm pretty ignorant about anything other that "red necks". So if a skinhead isn't into white supremacy, how are they different than a "punk"? Just different musical tastes? Please enlighten me.......is it dress, attitude, allegiances, ideology that makes one a "skinhead"???? and how is this different than a "punk" or an anarchist for that (does ) matter.
Thx in advance, this middle of road, low brow, airhead,
DD |
I never imagined I'd be taking over this thread.
A lot of skinheads are basically similar to punks. Remember there are quite a few different types of punks as well. There are skinheads who prefer reggae, or punk, or hardcore, or funk/r&B, or viking rock, or Rock Against Communism, or even skate-punk. I'd agree that skinheads are a subgroup of punk if it weren't for the fact that skinheads came first. The original skinheads formed with the blending of the British mods and the Jamaican rudeboys immigrating to Britain in the mid-'60s. Both of these groups were also revived when punk was born.
In descending order, these are the most important things to being a skinhead:
1. attitude
2. dress
3. friends
4. nation (may be substituted for one extinct megalomaniacal ideology, usually communism or national socialism)
5. work
6. music
7. alcoholism
8. they get a freebie down here, whether it be tattoos or stamp-collecting or carving swastikas on synagogues
The Wikipedia page is actually pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
You know, I served in the Canadian army with a couple of skinheads who simply didn't get it either. They weren't racist, but they certainly were fascinated by the whole neo-nazi symbolism. Told one of them, "What if I told you my grandmother was in a concentration camp?" after I caught him making swastikas on a concrete wall at the firing range with the black stickers that we used to patch the holes in cardboard targets. That made him feel real bad. He told his friends and most of them realized their error, except for this one girl who confronted me. "Look,"I said, "do I need to remind you that we're on a Canadian army base? How many Canadians have died fighting the Nazis? If you can't appreciate that, then you should get the #$%$ out of the army." |
Good call. Make them feel as bad as humanly possible, I say. The American guy who's here used to wear a Mussolini pin. I told him one of my relatives was shot down over Italy in WWII. Later on the pin mysteriously disappeared. The vast majority of racist skinheads are young and naive. Usually all they need is a bit of compassion and they'll sort things out on their own.
I know a bunch of Canadian military skins and they get put through hell because of the few racists around. Every few weeks one of them gets investigated for possible white supremacist connections. One of my friends used to go to ska shows with the Victoria trad skins, who were somehow on a watch list. Another one of the army skins is serving with a white power skinhead and just waiting for the opportunity to take him out behind the shed. My friend in Afghanistan told his superiors outright, "Yeah, I'm a skinhead. But I'm a Canadian patriot and I don't believe in any white power *beep*." They left him alone. |
That's thanks to the two boneheads in the Airborne Regiment who tortured and killed a 15 year-old kid in Somalia. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Meaning they were really skinheads? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Meaning they were really skinheads? |
I can't remember if they were or had been. They had swastikas tatooed on their bodies, if I remember correctly. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| "Look,"I said, "do I need to remind you that we're on a Canadian army base? How many Canadians have died fighting the Nazis? If you can't appreciate that, then you should get the #$%$ out of the army." |
That's exactly why I could never understand the kids who thought it was 'hard' to be a skinhead and carve a swastika into the desk when I was at school. You might as well paint 'traitor' on your forehead. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Skinheads, of any stripe, are about as interesting as a dirt sandwich. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| i'm racist as hell and i think people who say they aren't are g*ddamn liars |
It's a well known psychological phenominon that people are egocentric, ie we all think we are normal, and anyone who differs from us is, to varying degrees, perverse. |
a simple "who you callin' a liar?" would have sufficed. |
No it wouldn't actually. I'm not saying whether I am or am not a racist, I don't think that is a productive way to couch the discussion. I'm saying that your suggestion, that anyone who says they are not exactly like you is a liar, is the expression of a common and well noted phenomenon. In other words, using your own knowledge of self to guage the inner workings of someone else is erroneous. It assumes they are like you, which is one huge assumption, or rather one huge set of assumptions. |
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Why do you assume that I'm judging other people based on myself?
I think it's the opposite.
I've come to the conclusion that I'm racist after viewing other people.
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That's where the logic of your position breaks down. You cannot assess your own internal psychological motivation by observing others. It takes introversion to conclude one's self is x,y,z. Otherwise you are assuming fundamental common ground with others that may or may not be there.
Im not even addressing the question of whether everyone is racist. I'm saying the method you used to arrive at your conclusion is faulty. You've assessed that you're racist, that's fine. You've then extrapolated that because you are racist that everyone else is. That's egocentric, assuming everyone is like you. You simply can't know this information, not with this method anyway.
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I think that racism is tightly bound to the way the human mind processes information. It's really just an offshoot of faulty inductive reasoning. |
That is quite likely part of it. I think it goes deeper though. I think we are inherently tribal in nature, and prone to creating in groups and out groups. This made sense at one point in history, way way back. Unfortunately it doesn't make sense any more, but seems to be a deeply ingrained instinct.
But it can be overcome with rigorous education and introspection. And I don't think everyone is by any means on the same page about that. So, I could perhaps accept a statement like "Everyone is racist to varying degrees" more so than "Everyone is racist and if you dissagree you're a liar".
In fact it's been kind of proven that people are different about this. I don't have the details or the reference at hand. But there was a study in the states. People had to make very fast responses to certain photographs. Some of them were photos implying black people getting welfare money or something like this. The results were interesting. Republican voters showed a consistant tendancy to be anti black, while democrats significantly less so. If anyone has more details about this, that would be great.
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Frankly, I just think you're going out of your way to dig at me. Does this antipathy date back to the time i made fun of your rediculous spelling or do all my posts annoy you? |
Nothing so dramatic. I remember something about "rediculous" but wasn't even aware it was you, that's how important that was. I just try to respond to what people write, each thread in isolation.
Last edited by Satori on Thu May 18, 2006 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Right. Forgot about that.
There were far more people involved in that murder. There was quite a coverup, too. We were made to look for the 'lost' documents one afternoon (the Prime Minister gave the armed forces one day to find the evidence that strangely disappeared). They turned up behind a filing cabinet at HQ in Ottawa, or so the generals claimed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair
I may have gotten the hazing scandal mixed up with the murder.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010376
In any case, I trained with a guy who used to be in the Airborne. He was far from being racist or nuts. The guy was actually deeply religious and was prone to speaking in metaphors (not very good ones, mainly cliches, but at least he tried to be witty). |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: |
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RACETRAITOR,
Thanks for the post and info. Good read at Wikipedia and you've opened my eyes a bit (though I have a lot more of opening to do). Appreciated.
DD |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| That's where the logic of your position breaks down. You cannot assess your own internal psychological motivation by observing others. It takes introversion to conclude one's self is x,y,z. Otherwise you are assuming fundamental common ground with others that may or may not be there. |
yeah, I'm assuming there's common ground between me and my fellow human beings. is that where the logic breaks down? I don't see why that's such a faulty premise. if you don't believe there's certain traits that are common to at least the vast majority of humans (not to mention animals), well, I'd have to disagree, but i'd be interested in hearing why.
And I think my statement can be seen as the opposite of egocentric. I'm saying that I'm no different from the rest of humanity, that I'm not a unique and beautiful snowflake, and that there are certain fundamental failings in human nature that I am clearly not above.
and, yeah, i was being silly with the 'g*ddamn liar' stuff. "Everyone is racist to varying degrees" is my basic position. my 'theory,' which i mainly just made up to refute the idea that i'm egocentric (which is actually correct, but for other reasons), is that even if people can get over ignorance, inherited prejudices, tribal nature, etc. they'll still be stuck with a mind that tends to cobble together generalizations every chance it gets. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
RACETRAITOR,
Thanks for the post and info. Good read at Wikipedia and you've opened my eyes a bit (though I have a lot more of opening to do). Appreciated.
DD |
I should get a shirt made with that Wikipedia entry. So when people come up behind me to club me with a bottle, they'll stop and read it.
Remember, just because a guy's not racist doesn't mean he's a good person. There are plenty of non-racist skinheads who have drinking problems and anger management issues.
This is an online conversation I had with a kid from Fort MacMurray once.
him: "I think those skinheads are racist."
me: "What did they do?"
him: "They attacked me."
me: "But you're white."
him: "Yeah, but they are mean to me."
me: "So maybe they're just jerks then."
A week later he found out his dad used to be a skinhead in Montreal in the '70s. |
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Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Guys,
there are some interestng views in this thread but the stuff about skinheads is boring as hell.
just thought you oughta know. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
| Quote: |
| That's where the logic of your position breaks down. You cannot assess your own internal psychological motivation by observing others. It takes introversion to conclude one's self is x,y,z. Otherwise you are assuming fundamental common ground with others that may or may not be there. |
yeah, I'm assuming there's common ground between me and my fellow human beings. is that where the logic breaks down? I don't see why that's such a faulty premise. if you don't believe there's certain traits that are common to at least the vast majority of humans (not to mention animals), well, I'd have to disagree, but i'd be interested in hearing why.
And I think my statement can be seen as the opposite of egocentric. I'm saying that I'm no different from the rest of humanity, that I'm not a unique and beautiful snowflake, and that there are certain fundamental failings in human nature that I am clearly not above.
and, yeah, i was being silly with the 'g*ddamn liar' stuff. "Everyone is racist to varying degrees" is my basic position. my 'theory,' which i mainly just made up to refute the idea that i'm egocentric (which is actually correct, but for other reasons), is that even if people can get over ignorance, inherited prejudices, tribal nature, etc. they'll still be stuck with a mind that tends to cobble together generalizations every chance it gets. |
Clearly we have certain traits that are characteristic, the need for shelter, food, clothing, that's the basic level. Then we need to have meaningful work, to be valued, appreciated, respected, accepted, to be heard. We need love and phsyical affection. Whether being racist is one of those universals is quite debatable though. That's why I say that assessing yourself to be racist is valid, but then going on to assume that everyone else is also racist because you are is not particularly strong. You are asserting that whatever it is about yourself that you discovered ( upon introspection ) that you feel makes you're racist, is one of those things that is universal in humans.
Babies are not racist. Racists are educated. Therefore there is potential for non racist humans with the right early environmental factors.
The formal academic meaning of egocentric means placing yourself at the centre of your world view, seeing yourself as normative and everyone else as perverse to varying degrees depending on how far they differ from yourself. Not to be confused with the now common meaning of simply being an arrogant wanker... |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Clearly we have certain traits that are characteristic, the need for shelter, food, clothing, that's the basic level. Then we need to have meaningful work, to be valued, appreciated, respected, accepted, to be heard. We need love and phsyical affection. Whether being racist is one of those universals is quite debatable though.
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It is, but no more or less than some of the stuff on your list. Do people really need meaningful work?
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That's why I say that assessing yourself to be racist is valid, but then going on to assume that everyone else is also racist because you are is not particularly strong. You are asserting that whatever it is about yourself that you discovered ( upon introspection ) that you feel makes you're racist, is one of those things that is universal in humans. |
what basis do you have that all humans need meaningful work or need to be respected or need love? whatever process you went through to validate those ideas, then i'm going to claim that I went through the same process to find that everybody is racist, because apparently you approve of that process.
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Babies are not racist. Racists are educated. Therefore there is potential for non racist humans with the right early environmental factors. |
Are they not? I imagine if I was a black baby raised in a black family and then one day somebody with white skin came along and picked me up, I might be freaked out. I mean, I don't know, but it's possible. I find children to be the most notorious racists of all, and I'm not sure whether it's all coming from the parents or whether they're less inclined to censor their xenophobic tendencies.
At any rate, everybody inevitably does go through a learning process, and it's not just "my dad say blacks are lazy." There's also just the process of observing the world and thinking "chinese people eat a lot of rice. I guess I can assume the next chinese person I meet probably eats rice." |
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