Korean Job Discussion Forums

[desultude]

[desultude]

[Demophobe]

ttompatz, your argument is pure symantics. You are right, of course, but yet, you are wrong as well. Via the textbook, you are spot on. Via the real world, you are out to lunch. The real world includes the law-making authorities and the agents who enforce them.

Do you live every second on the right side of the laws of men? I seriously doubt it. Do you turn yourself in to the police when you run afoul? I doubt it. Your argument isn't with us or even the issue at hand, it's looking at the whole "world gone mad"...too large and just too strict.

You have tried to make it a black and white issue, but it's not. "Petty crime", mate. The law makers own words. In your world, these words cannot co-exist, yet in the real world, they do. Crime is crime, yes, but it does have shades of grey...along with white and black.

Your stance, while morally admirable, is ridiculous.

[TheUrbanMyth]

Lying on a resume is considered bad form too. And back in the West many companies are now hiring other companies that do background checks on many job applicants. There was an article in NEWSWEEK about this not so long ago. One of the quotes I liked was from (can't remember who said it, I'll see if I still have the issue at home) someone stating people who lie on a resume are more likely to cut other ethical corners as well. (I'll provide the exact quote if I find the issue).


If you come here legally, fine and kudos to you. If you come here illegally, be prepared to face the consequences. No one else owns you anything.

Enough said.

[poet13]

TUM... I read the same thing about cutting ethical corners as well, but it was a while ago and I dont remember the source. The other thing I remember from that was that an incredibly high percentage of people fabricate something on their resume, from inflation to outright makin' it up.

[alexh]

"cutting ethical corners" like the teachers on E-2 visas doing privates.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[TheFonz]

ttompatz wrote:

[jmbran11]

Thank You Desultude! I was really begining to worry about the level of narcisism here on this board.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop saying: "If you do the crime, do the time." Yes, we've read it. It was very catchy the first time. It was very catchy in 1932. It was very catchy on NYPD Blue. Get a new line.

Teaching without a degree IS NOT FRAUD unless someone is lied to. All this BS about hard-earned parents' money is only true if you assume inuendo that people without a degree are somehow inferior and that people with a degree provide a better service. RUBBISH! I've known both, and the only people who believe this are those who need to feel superior.
I worked two jobs while getting all of my degrees, and I paid for them myself with my sweat and labor (and infinite financial debt), and if someone can make a living without doing that - good for them! Maybe I should have had the guts to go out in the world and make my way without jumping through more hoops than I can count. But I didn't. I wan't so brave. I would be a loser to begrudge those that were smarter than me in the end, even though they don't have some worthless piece of paper to prove it!
I know people who were ABSOLUTELY honest with hagwons ("I have no degree, but I will give you my best everyday."), and they've done it. So they keep their jobs. To assume parents are getting ripped off is arrogant. Most parents get ripped off here. I know plenty of "degreed" teachers who aren't even trying anymore.
And, to answer your oh so pertinent question, ttompatz, would I turn in a rapist, or someone stealing from my elderly neighbor, or someone abusing children? Yes, in a heartbeat. Because that is real harm. It causes damage to one's soul. Having a teacher who didn't get the proper signature but works hard everyday, does not cause damage to one's soul. Certainly no more than a teacher with a degree who sucks!
I don't need the government of Korea, or any government, to draw this line for me. My experience in the world and my education have given me the ability to prioritize and determine my own moral boundaries.
What have yours given you? Except a huge chip on your shoulder.

[alexh]

Jmbran11 a man of the people. Vote Jmbran11 in 2012!

[Manner of Speaking]

Well, this is an old issue, it's been discussed here a lot before, and I haven't heard very many new points to be made on the subject. And I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree with those who have divergent opinions on the subject.

To me this is not an academic, theoretical situation, it's a personal one. Three years ago I worked for a small hogwan, a one-person owner/manager, that almost went bankrupt because a new "teacher" forged a diploma from the University of Toronto and submitted it to my boss to get his E-2 visa. My boss, not knowing the diploma was forged, unwittingly submitted it to immigration for processing.

A month later, Immigration walked in, busted and deported the guy, and was on the verge of fining the hogwan ten million won when the boss just managed to persuade them she had no idea the diploma was forged. My boss (who was also my friend) could have lost her hogwan, her savings, and I could have been out a job, all for the actions of one irresponsible, selfish person.

Sure, I could have gotten another job easily, but that's something that should be my choice, not something I should * have * to do because of somebody else's actions.

My opinion on illegals, therefore, is based on my personal experience...not because I feel some kind of vindictiveness or hostility towards them. I had no opinions either way, until one of them forced themselves into my work life.

So for those of you who are so morally outraged that somebody would be willing to turn in an illegal...I guess you are just going to have to accept that nobody is obligated to feel the same way you do on the issue, and realize that some of us out there have good, solid reasons for the opinions we hold. Whether you like it or not.

If some of you don't feel comfortable with the idea of turning in illegals...well fine, I can accept that. I don't expect other people to have to conform to my opinions...nor do I feel the need to make value judgements on people who disagree with me.

[CoolTeach]

ggfd

[jacl]

[jacl]

[TheUrbanMyth]