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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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stevenisi
What country are you from?
(I can't believe the laws there are that different from mine.) |
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poet13
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Location: Just over there....throwing lemons.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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an implicit agreement carries as much legal weight as a contract?
homey needs a drug test. |
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alabamaman
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| An implicit agreement is an understanding of an agreement without legal obligation. |
I know alot of forum members have read my contract evaluations. Contractual language I advocate for the most is;
"The employer is aware that Korean Immigration Officials issue penalties to Foreign Languge Teachers who work without an E2 Visa. Such penalties include fines, interrogation, and deportation. The employee will work, and/or participate in any other work related activites when Korean Immigration Officials have issued the employee an E2 Visa."
This contractual language is at the very bane of this debate. Would I come to an implicit agreement with my superior on such contractual language? Absolutely not. Implicit agreements are essentialy verbal agreements and/or hand shakes. Verbal agreements as well as hand shakes are not governed by Korean Labor Laws as well as Immigration Policies.
alabamaman |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| alabamaman wrote: |
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| By the way, the apartment the former teacher (who has left) used to live in. And now the school is -1 teacher and -1 apartment. |
Stevenisi were you friends with this teacher you mentioned in your response, co-workers at one time, aquaintences, or were you the teacher in fact who left?
I've asked you earlier in one of my posts, and this post will be the second time. I also sent you a PM asking pretty much the same thing.
I have a feeling this is why your getting a tad bit fired up in this thread. Am I correct?
If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected. |
Stevenisi is quite obviously a troll. Ignore him and he will go away. He's probably a sock of another poster who is angry with you for some reason. |
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alabamaman
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| alabamaman wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By the way, the apartment the former teacher (who has left) used to live in. And now the school is -1 teacher and -1 apartment. |
Stevenisi were you friends with this teacher you mentioned in your response, co-workers at one time, aquaintences, or were you the teacher in fact who left?
I've asked you earlier in one of my posts, and this post will be the second time. I also sent you a PM asking pretty much the same thing.
I have a feeling this is why your getting a tad bit fired up in this thread. Am I correct?
If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected. |
Stevenisi is quite obviously a troll. Ignore him and he will go away. He's probably a sock of another poster who is angry with you for some reason. |
Well said
alabamaman |
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stevenisi
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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You guys are all missing my point.
The dude accepted the position knowing full well that he would be on a tourist visa and they would probably expect him to teach. Yes it is illegal.
Let me ask everyone a question: How many of you teach privates?
That's illegal. But I don't read anyone calling out other teachers on that. It's the same thing with the same consequences.
If you accept a position on a tourist visa, know that you will be expected to teach illegally for a week or so. It's not evil. It's as evil as someone taking on a private student for some extra money.
If you're not going to teach, then don't accept a position until you get an E2. That's all. It seems pretty simple to me.
And, yes, an implicit agreement given the context and relationship between two parties is as binding as a contract. Doesn't anyone watch Judge Judy? Seriously, if you *really* know law, then refute it. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| stevenisi wrote: |
You guys are all missing my point.
The dude accepted the position knowing full well that he would be on a tourist visa and they would probably expect him to teach. Yes it is illegal.
Let me ask everyone a question: How many of you teach privates?
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None, but I will legally be getting another part time job soon
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That's illegal. But I don't read anyone calling out other teachers on that. It's the same thing with the same consequences.
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Last I heard, the consequences are not the same. Being caught doing privates (atleast the first time) is a large fine but no deportation
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If you accept a position on a tourist visa, know that you will be expected to teach illegally for a week or so. It's not evil. It's as evil as someone taking on a private student for some extra money.
If you're not going to teach, then don't accept a position until you get an E2. That's all. It seems pretty simple to me.
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You have to accept the job before you get the visa. The visa needs a signed contract. I still am assuming that the OP assumed it would be taken care of before he started teaching. He has a history of saying not to work illegally.
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And, yes, an implicit agreement given the context and relationship between two parties is as binding as a contract. Doesn't anyone watch Judge Judy? Seriously, if you *really* know law, then refute it. |
Wow, Judge Judy! I studied tort law in uni and even then gave only general advice as a few courses doesn't make me an expert. Judge Judy, eh?
Anyways, it is not AS binding as a contract, but in small claims court a verbal contract is admissible. Like I said before (and you obviously must not have read), a binding contract (or implicit agreement) based on an illegal action (working without a visa) is not admissible and in the eyes of the law there never was an implicit agreement, it never existed. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| stevenisi wrote: |
| Speaking of law, there is such a thing as an implicit agreement, which holds just as much standing in the eyes of the law as a written contract. |
Which is void when one party is requested to partake in illegal behavior. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| stevenisi wrote: |
You guys are all missing my point.
The dude accepted the position knowing full well that he would be on a tourist visa and they would probably expect him to teach. Yes it is illegal. |
The OP accepted the position expecting that the director would provide him with an E-2 visa and not require him to work until the application was processed and he had been to Japan. Doubtless, the contract of employment contains a clause which makes any illegal activity on the part of the OP a sackable offence. Your point isn't being "missed." It's being completely disregarded because the position you are adopting is plainly wrong.
| Quote: |
| Let me ask everyone a question: How many of you teach privates? |
Why don't you ask how many people don't do privates?
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| That's illegal. But I don't read anyone calling out other teachers on that. It's the same thing with the same consequences. |
If you trawl through the archives you will encounter a plethora of posts full of condemnation for those who do privates.
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| If you accept a position on a tourist visa, know that you will be expected to teach illegally for a week or so. |
Has the OP stated that he does privates? If not, this point becomes equally as superfluous as your others.
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| If you're not going to teach, then don't accept a position until you get an E2. That's all. It seems pretty simple to me. |
One of the documents you have to submit to the immigration office is a contract of employment. Is the signature at the bottom of the page not an indication that the position has been accepted? The E-2 visa will legally trigger the contract. One can't exist without the other.
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| And, yes, an implicit agreement given the context and relationship between two parties is as binding as a contract. Doesn't anyone watch Judge Judy? Seriously, if you *really* know law, then refute it. |
Considering that your position calls for the OP to break the laws of the Republic of Korea I find it quite baffling as to why you would suddenly ask us if we know the law. Are you really suggesting that we prove to you that it is illegal to work without an E2 visa despite that fact that you have already admitted yourself that it is illegal?
Judge Judy indeed. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Seriously, I would like to see...
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| stevenisi wrote: |
You guys are all missing my point.
(1) The dude accepted the position knowing full well that he would be on a tourist visa and they would probably expect him to teach. Yes it is illegal.
(2) Let me ask everyone a question: How many of you teach privates?
(3) That's illegal. But I don't read anyone calling out other teachers on that. It's the same thing with the same consequences.
(4)If you accept a position on a tourist visa, know that you will be expected to teach illegally for a week or so. It's not evil. It's as evil as someone taking on a private student for some extra money.
(5) If you're not going to teach, then don't accept a position until you get an E2. That's all. It seems pretty simple to me.
(6) And, yes, an implicit agreement given the context and relationship between two parties is as binding as a contract. (7) Doesn't anyone watch Judge Judy? Seriously, if you *really* know law, then refute it. |
(numbers are mine)
On the off chance that you are not a troll, but just really really slow let me explain it one more time. Read carefully and understanding may start to penetrate.
1. Yes it is illegal. FINALLY!
2. I don't teach privates and never have.
3. I and many other teachers have called others out on doing privates before. There have been many "battles" fought over this in 2002-03. However the consequences are less severe (as another poster pointed out.)..so it's really not the same thing, at least in the eyes of the law)
4. No it is not evil. No one is saying that. It is not immoral to teach privates (if you are doing your best). It is ILLEGAL. Is a glimmer of understanding there yet? As for being expected to teach illegally, so what? If the boss expects me to jump off the fifth floor of the school to entertain the children, he is going to be sorely disappointed. And the reason it is expected is because of teachers like you who roll over and play dead. "yesbossir"
5. Mr. alabamaman did not refuse to teach per se. He refused to teach WITHOUT an E-2 visa (which is required by law.)
6. An implicit agreement based on an illegal action is not binding.
7. Judge Judy? Are you for real? Seriously. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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You should not teach without your E2 visa.
Alabamaman is right on this one.
As to: who is at fault, why he has no visa yet, living in the school's housing ... these things should have been discussed and arranged in advance between the parties. It's unfortunate that A-man's new job has started off so badly. He hasn't explained how it happened, so no one should be blaming the school or A-man.
Since Alabamaman has been looking for a job and been part of other threads about his job search, it's likely that no one is to blame here. Rather, there hasn't been enough time to get everything processed, and the school management doesn't have the patience to wait.
This is a tough spot for both parties. Alabamaman will need to keep a cool head, be very diplomatic and sympathetic, and stick to his principles. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Alabamaman, pay no attention to this guy. He's just screwing with your head. 
Even if you have moved in to an employer-owned apartment before you received your E-2 visa and have started work, it costs the employer nothing for you to be living there. The cost to the employer of securing the apartment was undertaken when the employer secured the apartment for the previous teacher(s) who lived there. So to have you living there now costs your boss nothing.
Obviously, you will not be paid any money, until you begin accumulating teaching hours legally. Which you cannot do until you receive your visa. Your boss is not paying you now, before you've started work, so there are no out-of-pocket expenses that your boss is accumulating, while the two of you are waiting for the visa to be processed.
You've signed a contract, and you are abiding by it. Teaching is not piece-work or working on a chain gang. Possibly there are some things you can do to show your conscientiousness (sp) and willingness to work now....sit in on other teacher's classes to learn the ropes, begin preparing lesson plans...but essentially your employer has placed themself in the position where you are unable to generate income for the school yet.
The issue will quickly disappear once the visa is processed, and everybody begins making money again. |
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alabamaman
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: |
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http://www.immigration.go.kr/indeximmeng.html
Who is eligible to work in Korea ?
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| If you want to work in Korea, you must have a visa allowing employment activities. And each visa allowing employment has also specific restrictions on the scope of your activities. Even if you have a visa allowing employment, you should work only in the place of work reported to and designated by a local or district Immigration office |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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If you accept a position on a tourist visa, know that you will be expected to teach illegally for a week or so. It's not evil. It's as evil as someone taking on a private student for some extra money.
No its not! Teaching privates is a CHOICE someone makes. Being told to work illegally and saying no is also a choice....a different choice though.....its refusing to do anything illegal!
If you're not going to teach, then don't accept a position until you get an E2. That's all. It seems pretty simple to me.
Ummm...you cant get a position until you have your E2 technically....no E2 = no job! Until you get your visa you cannot legally work...fairly simple!
And, yes, an implicit agreement given the context and relationship between two parties is as binding as a contract. Doesn't anyone watch Judge Judy? Seriously, if you *really* know law, then refute it
Any agreement that violates the law is void and unenforcable....perhaps you should watch less Judge Judy and more Judge Joe Brown  |
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