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how can the US keep doing this?
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jmbran11



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the OP's questions - yes, many Americans do feel bad when civilians die. Many Americans, like myself, feel great sorrow for the violence that is being perpetraited in the world, and for the actions of our government. The Bush administration does not represent all of "our" people. Many Americans do somehow feel it is more tragic when our citizens die thain when foreigners die. I don't know if that's because we feel more worthy of life than poor people, or because it is just natural. Most Americans have never experienced war, we are not accustomed to being attacked. We see it on television, but we can't feel it, because we've never been bombed or watched innocent loved ones die. It doesn't affect our daily lives and we can't do anything about it, so we largely just try not to think about it too much. We are not heartless.

And, yes, civilians are hurt in all wars. Any nation with power will abuse it to some degree. It's human nature. It's pointless to argue about which conflicts are just and which hurt more people. But, the reason many Americans will accept this loss is because, in our hearts, we believe our country is more just and righteous than other countries. I'm not arguing that it's true, just expressing what I believe others feel. We believe that we have a better standard of living, a higher respect for democracy, and that we are capable of justice and judgment upon those who are less civilized. We believe our army (and government) doesn't want to kill civilians and tries to be as just as is possible in warfare, while lessor nations will kill, rape, and maim civilians without restraint. For example, we put our own soldiers on trial for misconduct in Iraq.

I'm not defending the U.S. I have a deep hatred for our current administration and its decisions. But, I will defend the American people. We aren't heartless. Maybe we are smug and (I believe) too easily misled by propoganda, but we also care about other human beings. We have a long tradition of fighting for the rights of others. While I vehemently disagree with basically everything my government says and does, and am a loud critic of policies I disagree with, I will never be ashamed to be an American.

It's little brother syndrome. You can treat your brother like crap, but when someone else crosses him, you band together and defend your family. Americans can criticize the U.S., but we get defensive when foreigners do it. No country is perfect. If other nations had as much power as the United States, they would be have as badly (or worse).
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
human nature. It's pointless to argue about which conflicts are just and which hurt more people. But, the reason many Americans will accept this loss is because, in our hearts, we believe our country is more just and righteous than other countries. I'm not arguing that it's true, just expressing what I believe others feel. We believe that we have a better standard of living, a higher respect for democracy, and that we are capable of justice and judgment upon those who are less civilized


I can buy this and believe this. Well spoken and from the heart and is speaks of the truth of the matter and not all the yahoo, bravado and fantasy Gameboyism that parades as an easy fix or the voice of the loud --- it is the voice of the common person and I thank you for stating it as such.

I think you are speaking heartfelt and echoing how I feel. That America will be much more valued for pulling back, realizing and fulfilling her strong and abundant and life giving nature and NOT teaching the world of more hate and revenge and killing. There is more than one way to lead.

There is no need. Let America lead the way in this fashion.

DD

I would end by pointing many towards those immortal words of Bobby Kennedy.....he spoke of an America I admire and which will always be there, despite.....

Quote:
The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed. No one - no matter where he lives or what he does - can be certain who will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on and on in this country of ours.

Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr's cause has ever been stilled by an assassin's bullet.


Quote:
whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of the law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence - whenever we tear at the fabric of the life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.


Quote:
Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike. We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far-off lands. We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment. We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire whatever weapons and ammunition they desire.


Quote:
We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in the search for the advancement of others. We must admit in ourselves that our own children's future cannot be built on the misfortunes of others. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge.


Quote:
But we can perhaps remember, if only for a time, that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short moment of life; that they seek, as do we, nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and in happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment they can.


Please listen to the lost words of Bobby at....

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/kennedy2/vil.html

DD
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NAVFC



Joined: 10 May 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddeubel wrote:
Quote:
ddeubel:

You need to retake 7th Grade. That wasn't a metaphor; it was an analogy and a rather sound one at that. Hope you're teaching in a hagwon and not a university.


Well, I hope you are selling swamp land, you'd be good at it. Since when pray tell, has a metaphor not been a type of analogy?

Quote:
Billions are spent on SMART weaponry to avoid civilian casualties!
To avoid killing our own men? BS! As in modern day war 80% of the time during the heavy bombings are men arent on the ground yet, thats why we bomb, to soften a area up and prep the battle field.


Yes, billions. You can see as far as your nose but not further........ advance the rationale to its end and you will find the carrot swinging. The advanced nations could not use carpet, "dumb" bombs (and my use of the word dumb was an "allusion" not a technical term, last time.) so they had to develop new means to provide a rationale for "killing". The rationale developed when they developed missles accurate enough to hit a target. So forever after they could say, "we did all we could". In essence, it is a way of assauging public opinion while still getting away with categorical murder.....that is all it is.

Let's do a thought experiment. An Al Qaeda member is in a house but so to is George Bush's daughter. Do you strike? Well by your rationale, yes. But you can be sure as hell certain they wouldn't. Why? Because it is all about protecting "our" lives meanwhile mouthing platitudes about the sanctity of life and protecting life and how all are created equal. BS.

Back to the point about not seeing far enough. Weapons are developed to be precise , precisely to allow for maximal damage, minimal outlay (of material, explosive, work). Efficiency, pure and raw, economic efficiency. Which in total , is about protecting the military, the men on the ground. Trouble with this? There are no men on the ground. There is no war.....

I think I've awoken amidst a Kafkian story here.....all this mention of war, the barbarians at the gates. Yet where is the war? Please show me? The only war is the fiction, the advertising job the govt has sold on everyone. There is no war and not even a legal war, if there could ever be such. And we don't have to go into the specifics regarding this, do we.....for a hundredth time? There is no war?

And that is the problem with the "smilie" proposed about how civilian deaths in world war two are the same as at present. They aren't! There is no legal war, there is no enemy but who the govt says, there are but shadows. Yes, there are bad men, they are criminals. But legally, historically, there is not a single notion, a single factual comparison to be made between what exists at present and "war". This term only developed through the speech writers and the speech pathology of one Texan versed in that time old Texan skill of exaggeration.

But yeah, like I pointed out elsewhere, the yahoos will still continue with their phallic fantasies of pointed guns and explosions of delight....... God , where is the Swift of this age, when we need him....

DD

DD


You need to do a reality check.
AAlso your argument contradicts itself. At one point you say smart weapons are about protecting your men then in the second part you note when we do bomb there usually aren't men on the ground as a result you say "There is no war"
Which is BS too, as for a war to happen doesn'trequire ground troops.
Air wars have been waged.

Andcivilian causalites arent the samefrom WW2. Many more died in World War II then in modern wars. Why?Smart weapons. Thats right.
You need to wake up from your James Bond/ everything is a confrence la la land and check into reality with the rest of the modern world.

The war is legal. Al Aqaeda , supported by the Taliban did attack the US, and Congress gave Bush war powers for Iraq.

The onlywar is fiction?Boy are you high?

Air strikes in Somalia, Battles in Iraq, battles in Afghanistan..
DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK?!
Thats where the war is, read the news!

You now people killing our men, our men killing the enemy.Thats called war.
Wakeupfromyour fantasty land and join reality.
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You need to do a reality check.
AAlso your argument contradicts itself. At one point you say smart weapons are about protecting your men then in the second part you note when we do bomb there usually aren't men on the ground as a result you say "There is no war"


I am awake and alive at this hour and though I can't give you a lesson on how to read, I will stake these few words near your.....

My arguement discussed the notion of "not seeing beyond ones nose". You also can't even see the carrot, let alone who is holding it. Bombing is a solution to the eventuality of being on the ground. Thus, ergo, pashasta, it is a decision to save soldiers, not civilians. Smart bombs, are a way of placating weak hearts(thank god for those) , not real body counts.

Part II

Quote:
Which is BS too, as for a war to happen doesn'trequire ground troops.
Air wars have been waged.


Air attacks have been waged, NOT war. War is to change something, an air attack is only a predicator of that will to change NOT the whole thing. There is no such thing as an air war. Bodies have to be on the ground, govts have to change. You have to change your wings.

Quote:
Andcivilian causalites arent the samefrom WW2. Many more died in World War II then in modern wars. Why?Smart weapons. Thats right


Don't you see how kindergarten your statement is?????? I agree with the first sentence but the second is brain numbing. A lot more than Smart weapons has happened, lots more. Most or almost all of modern war casualties (if you are talking post WWII which is what I believe you mean -- are from small weapons and munitions. NOT smart weapons at all. And still the amount of casualties has grown immensely in armed conflict, since WWII. Go figure...what the hell have "smart' weapons done? That is precisely why I called them dumb, because they give the stupid the notion they are smart.

Quote:
You need to wake up from your James Bond/ everything is a confrence la la land and check into reality with the rest of the modern world.


Other way around and precisely why the U.S. is where it is....not listening to the rest of the world, not communicating with the rest of the world, not understanding other cultures....total and unabashed, tunnel vision.

Quote:
The war is legal. Al Aqaeda , supported by the Taliban did attack the US, and Congress gave Bush war powers for Iraq.


Ah! Glad you stepped right in it or as you are a navy man, rammed it. First, the war is illegal. If you lie and say you didn't take drugs but win the world series, you still didn't win....you are a cheat. Second, the war was never consented to by the American people. It was not voted upon, it was not given any blessing. Third, where is the country of Al Qaeda hiding? Which nation is the war upon , if there is one? Is it the war under my bed, or over the Caucaus mountains. Is it the war where I say it is, and where I want to aim my bombs? I say it is the later, in appearance only. Quasi, proxy, pretended, and utterly provincial. Meaning, it is "A Brave New World ' version of order. We tell you who is bad, where is bad, just believe us. I wouldn't trust GBJ to even tell me if my burger was well done........

Please, you are totally brainwashed in military phantagorism....you don't know up nor down and I suggest you get yourself to the nearest AA meeting (arm addictics anomynous). Please don't put on the gameboy anymore, there is an enery crisis you know?

Quote:
The onlywar is fiction?Boy are you high?


Yes, very high. Easy to see you gremlins below and breath the fresh air. Thus spake....


DD
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cbclark4



Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Aerial warfare is the use of military aircraft and other flying machines in warfare. Developing from unpowered observation hot air balloons in the 18th century, aerial warfare has become a high-technology affair that has led to many advances in techniques such as propulsion, radar, and carbon fibers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_war

"A war is a conflict between two or more groups that involve large numbers of individuals. Wars may be prosecuted simultaneously in one or more theatres of war. Within each theatre, there may be one or more consecutive military campaigns. Individual actions of war within a specific campaign are traditionally called battles, although this terminology is not always applied to contentions in modernity involving aircraft, missiles or bombs alone in the absence of ground troops or naval forces."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_war

Land warfare in the 21st century involves three distinct types of combat units: Infantry, Armour and Artillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_warfare

Naval warfare is combat in and on seas and oceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_warfare

Information warfare is the use and management of information in pursuit of a competitive advantage over an opponent. Information warfare may involve collection of tactical information, assurance that one's own information is valid, spreading of propaganda or disinformation among the enemy, undermining the quality of opposing force information and denial of information collection opportunities to opposing forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare

Space warfare is warfare that takes place in outer space. Technically as a distinct classification, it refers to battles where the targets themselves are in space. Space warfare therefore includes ground-to-space warfare, such as attacking satellites from the Earth, as well as space-to-space warfare, such as satellites attacking satellites. It does not include space-to-ground warfare, where orbital objects attack ground targets directly, or the indirect military use of satellites for espionage, surveillance, or military communications. No incidents of space warfare have ever occurred and placement of weapons and military personnel in space is limited by international treaties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_warfare

A covert operation is a military or political activity performed in secrecy that would break specific laws or compromise policy in another country. Covert operations almost always illegal in the target state and are sometimes in violation of the laws of the enacting country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_operation

cbc
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Civilians is gettin killed?

Shoot, must be all them uncivilians theys runnin round with
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