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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
Well, I guess that Filipino dude will start gunning down holiday shoppers any day now. He's long overdue.  |
He became a US citizen and volunteered for Vietnam. He said when he was in combat he didn't react in the same as the others because of what he saw as a kid. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Utah killings was Jihad, report
March 17, 2007 -- Bosnian Muslim immigrant's rampage at a Utah shopping mall, killing five Americans while shouting Allahu Akbar or Allah is Great before being gunned down by police is a "textbook study of a jihadist attack" claim authors at the independent PipeLineNews.org.
According to the report, the evening before going on a killing spree, the shooter, Bosnian Muslim Sulejman Talovic, told his girlfriend that "Something is going to happen tomorrow that you'll never be able to forgive me about" and that the event will be "the happiest day of his life and that it could only happen once in a lifetime."
Islam considers dying in service of Allah as the highest form of Islamic spiritual sacrifice and such martyrdom is a "happy moment" because it will be greatly rewarded by Islamic God called Allah.
"Talovic's expression to his girlfriend that his killing spree would be the happiest day of his life is consistent with an understanding of the central function of jihad in Islam," write Beila Rabinowitz and William A. Mayer.
"Contrary to claims made by Talovic's family, his girlfriend stated that he had a contact at the local mosque, which is located immediately adjacent to the scene of Sulejman's carnage," write Rabinowitz and Mayer.
"I am amazed that the media is so obsessed with portraying Talovic as some dreamy, visionary Muslim kid and no one pays attention to the dead he left behind," says Olivia Hill, an American from Texas.
"Salt Lake Tribune talks about his favorite color, favorite food, how he loved outdoors, fishing... and not a word on the dead and the pain these families are suffering and frankly, I am offended by this glorification of a killer... is it because he is a Muslim?" asks Hill.
"The reason for this obfuscation seems clear at this point, the shootings at the Trolley Square Mall were the result of Muslim terrorism, a premeditated act of jihad by Sulejman Talovic," conclude Rabinowitz and Mayer.
"Based on these facts law enforcement must quit denying what is now obvious and start re-investigating this matter for what it is, an example of domestic terrorism," write Rabinowitz and Mayer. "The public must demand a full inquiry, including a full investigation into the Al Noor Mosque."
March 17, 2007 serbianna (c)
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http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01377.shtml
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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"Allahu Akbar" my ass.  |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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"Serbianna"??
Color me skeptical. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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"Serbianna"??
Color me skeptical. |
Well, here's the source they were quoting...
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Just a day before the murders Talovic told his 17 year old Bosnian girlfriend Monika, with whom he had discussed marriage plans that he was involved in a dark plot.
"Something is going to happen tomorrow that you'll never be able to forgive me about" Talovic's girlfriend told the Salt Lake Times adding that "It was supposed be the happiest day of his life and that it could only happen once in a lifetime." [source Trolley Shooting: Even to the girl he loved, Talovic a mystery to the end, http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5431036]
Monica also revealed a "vision" that Talovic had while in Bosnia:
"One evening, "as the sun was falling," Talovic heard a horse outside of his family's home in Bare, where they lived after they left Talovici. He walked out and, standing before him was a white horse "with two beautiful eyes," he told Monika.
'And he said, 'Look,' and his aunt [who was also outside] couldn't see it there,'' Monika said. It was at that moment she knew he was a "good-souled" person.
''He thought of it as only 'good-souled people' could see happiness and goodness,'' she said."
Two of these points are extremely significant in understanding Talovic's motivation; his statement that the mall attack would be his "happiest day" and the invocation of the "white horse" motif, as both are tied to Islamic thinking regarding jihad.
According to the The West Point Combatting Terrorism Center's section on Islamic imagery, the meaning of the white horse symbol is directly related to jihad:
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Interesting that the website uses the term "dark plot", but doesn't quote him as saying that he had co-conspirators.
Here is the West Point website's stuff on horses...
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Horse, general
back to top The horse is a very important symbol in both Arabic and Islamic culture. Since pre-Islamic times, Arabs have identified horses with chivalry, battle, bravery, and victory. For Muslims, horses also evoke the first generation of Muslims and their successful campaigns of jihad. The horse motif as a synonym for jihad stems from a famous Islamic hadith that states: �He who out of faith in Allah and a firm belief in His promise prepares a horse while waiting for jihad, then its feeding and drinking and its dung are all in his favor on the day of Resurrection.� The horse is also often employed to evoke specific Salafi religious sentiments, especially with regards to the military (i.e. jihadi) victories of the first generation of Islam. The horse evokes the Salafi notions of purity and the belief that the first generation of Muslims and the companions of the Prophet Muhammad practiced the �true� version of Islam. The horse motif is thus used both literally and figuratively to evoke jihad itself. More importantly, horses evoke Salafi notions of the purity of the jihad (and Islam) as practiced by the first generations of Muslims, and serve as a reminder of their incredible success in battle.
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If, as the article seems to imply, horses have a wider significance in Muslim culture than just representing jihad, then it seems like a bit of a stretch to connect this horse vision specifically to the crimes in Utah. But everyone can draw their own conclusions I guess.
http://www.pipelinenews.org/
http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01377.shtml
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/imagery_nature.asp#horsegen
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5431036] |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
Utah killings was Jihad, report
March 17, 2007 -- Bosnian Muslim immigrant's rampage at a Utah shopping mall, killing five Americans while shouting Allahu Akbar or Allah is Great before being gunned down by police is a "textbook study of a jihadist attack" claim authors at the independent PipeLineNews.org.
According to the report, the evening before going on a killing spree, the shooter, Bosnian Muslim Sulejman Talovic, told his girlfriend that "Something is going to happen tomorrow that you'll never be able to forgive me about" and that the event will be "the happiest day of his life and that it could only happen once in a lifetime."
Islam considers dying in service of Allah as the highest form of Islamic spiritual sacrifice and such martyrdom is a "happy moment" because it will be greatly rewarded by Islamic God called Allah.
"Talovic's expression to his girlfriend that his killing spree would be the happiest day of his life is consistent with an understanding of the central function of jihad in Islam," write Beila Rabinowitz and William A. Mayer.
"Contrary to claims made by Talovic's family, his girlfriend stated that he had a contact at the local mosque, which is located immediately adjacent to the scene of Sulejman's carnage," write Rabinowitz and Mayer.
"I am amazed that the media is so obsessed with portraying Talovic as some dreamy, visionary Muslim kid and no one pays attention to the dead he left behind," says Olivia Hill, an American from Texas.
"Salt Lake Tribune talks about his favorite color, favorite food, how he loved outdoors, fishing... and not a word on the dead and the pain these families are suffering and frankly, I am offended by this glorification of a killer... is it because he is a Muslim?" asks Hill.
"The reason for this obfuscation seems clear at this point, the shootings at the Trolley Square Mall were the result of Muslim terrorism, a premeditated act of jihad by Sulejman Talovic," conclude Rabinowitz and Mayer.
"Based on these facts law enforcement must quit denying what is now obvious and start re-investigating this matter for what it is, an example of domestic terrorism," write Rabinowitz and Mayer. "The public must demand a full inquiry, including a full investigation into the Al Noor Mosque."
March 17, 2007 serbianna (c)
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http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01377.shtml
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This comes from a Serbian right wing site. That is like consulting a Nazi sight regarding the holocaust. The Serbian paramilitaries killed easily about 100,000 Bosnian Muslims which means they basically ethnic cleansed them. Do you understand what 100,000 means? That is a serious crime. Whole villages were cleansed of their Muslim Bosnian inhabitants. There were also rape camps.
Do you know what's happening in Chechnya while the media is relatively silent? I think part of the problem is both sides are claiming the other is the savage one. People don't win in those debates. Anyway, I looked up many articles on this one and they didn't mention him saying Allahu Akbar. I know BJWD is trying to portray Muslims en masse as some barbaric horde, but let us not forget the 100,000 dead Bosnians, thousands of Chechnyans, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, thousands of Lebanese during the 1980s from being bombed etc... We are talking about human beings, so let us be objective, not sectarian or bigoted and cheapen the loss of life and spit on the graves of the dead no matter where they are from. It is too sad. How many Chechnyan girls have been raped? Ever think about that before going to sleep and condemning people?
http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/63199
This link says him saying allahu akbar is a rumour. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| I know BJWD is trying to portray Muslims en masse as some barbaric horde, |
Yeah, no I'm not. But I am trying to cut around the PC on this issue. Clearly, there is more than the msm was willing to report, as in many other "spontaneous personal jihad" episodes in America.
You are, however, trying to cover up for them the real fact that the 'reformation' has finished, and jihad has won. Why? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
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| I know BJWD is trying to portray Muslims en masse as some barbaric horde, |
Yeah, no I'm not. But I am trying to cut around the PC on this issue. Clearly, there is more than the msm was willing to report, as in many other "spontaneous personal jihad" episodes in America.
You are, however, trying to cover up for them the real fact that the 'reformation' has finished, and jihad has won. Why? |
The police haven't produced any statement about him saying allahu akbar. I watched the news, read stuff on-line. No evidence of that
You seem to ignore injustices committed against a certain people.
Who is them? I am saying that both sides are guilty for the divide that exists and you are part of that divide. You are not the bridge or cantilever that is healing the breach, you are just trying to increase the breach, because of what you went through. I am sorry you had a hard time, I think immigration should only be accessed by people who seem educated and moderate from wherever, but ignoring the role the West has played in the mess including the death of those of that gunman's background is a large part of the problem. You are trying to cover up by your ommission genocide, warcrimes committed against a people. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| This comes from a Serbian right wing site. |
They're just jealous because Talovic beat their own body count.
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| You seem to ignore injustices committed against a certain people. |
What people? Huh? The people shot in Utah?
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| Who is them? I am saying that both sides are guilty for the divide that exists and you are part of that divide. |
Both sides? You mean, the side that wants to spread islam and the side that doesn't want to accept islam? Or, the side that kills in the name of islam and the side that covers it up for them? I suppose you mean the islam vs. vocal anti-islam. Well, tough. I'm also anti-nazi, if it makes any difference.
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| You are not the bridge or cantilever that is healing the breach, you are just trying to increase the breach, because of what you went through. |
What I went through??? Where, in Turkey? Sorry, but the Koreans were infinitely more horrible to be around than the Turks, and screwed me over more. I have been against islam (was actually suspended from school for calling mo' a pedophile back in 1999) from start of my adult intellectual life. I just haven't been able to do like so many, and pretend that, because it tugs at white guilt, all is ok in muslim culture.
I'm very much against all religion. But, I am EXTRA against people who defend islam in the name of tolerance. Cultural suicide. Consult the Assyrians or Persia for reference.
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| I am sorry you had a hard time, I think immigration should only be accessed by people who seem educated and moderate from wherever, but ignoring the role the West has played in the mess including the death of those of that gunman's background is a large part of the problem. |
You are talking out of your ass. I'm 100% non-interventionist. I am totally opposed to every military, or other, action that the West has done in non-Western lands. I am very aware that they hate us for both what we have done to them AND that we are not muslim (while you only see the one). I say so all the bloody time. That doesn't mean that we have to "tolerate" their hate. It does mean that 1) they need to be kept away, regardless of how 'diverse' you think that they are and 2) we need to keep to ourselves.
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| You are trying to cover up by your ommission genocide, warcrimes committed against a people. |
What omission? Dude, are you high, like, right now? A guy kills people in a mall in America for what seems to be likely jihadist reasons, and all the non-muslims fall over themselves to cover up the truth, and I'm supposed to talk about a war in Bosnia? Get a grip.
Simple question. Are you saying that what he did is 'understandable' because he is a muslim from the former Yugoslavia? Really? I'm waiting for all the Vietnamese shooting up malls, and Germans spraying El Al counters in LA.
As much as you can not allow yourself to admit it, islam IS the problem. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
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| You seem to ignore injustices committed against a certain people. |
What people? Huh? The people shot in Utah?
[No, you don't seem to care when Chechnyan civilians get killed. I never saw you mention Bosnians or Chechnyan civilians. Why? That is very bad, man. You keep on talking about when Muslims kill someone but an innocent person born Muslim is never mentioned in your posts. I can't recall one. Fair enough you mentioned these victims, but you quote a Serbian website to try to bolster the argument that he is a fanatic, because you are obsessed with this stuff.
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| Who is them? I am saying that both sides are guilty for the divide that exists and you are part of that divide. |
Both sides? You mean, the side that wants to spread islam and the side that doesn't want to accept islam? Or, the side that kills in the name of islam and the side that covers it up for them? I suppose you mean the islam vs. vocal anti-islam. Well, tough. I'm also anti-nazi, if it makes any difference.
[No, man. Saying you are anti-Nazi doesn't mean anything if you do not mention the fact that Bosnians died in mass graves, Srebrenica, Chechnyan women have been raped ad nauseum, Grozny was bombed like crazy. That is far worse than the stuff you have posted about, but I never see you mention these people. Why don't you do some research into what the Russians did in Chechnya if you want to talk about terrorism. Yes, I am aware of Beslan, but we hear about Beslan but not about Grozny.
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| You are not the bridge or cantilever that is healing the breach, you are just trying to increase the breach, because of what you went through. |
What I went through??? Where, in Turkey? Sorry, but the Koreans were infinitely more horrible to be around than the Turks, and screwed me over more. I have been against islam (was actually suspended from school for calling mo' a pedophile back in 1999) from start of my adult intellectual life. I just haven't been able to do like so many, and pretend that, because it tugs at white guilt, all is ok in muslim culture.
[So you are against Islam. Why do you have to post ad nauseum about your jihad or crusade against Islam. We get it. Isn't that like preaching to us about some McCarthy like fear against the green crescent people, so to speak? As far as Mohammed, I doubt any of the Old Testament people all married people over the age 18. I admit, it sounds horrible to marry someone younger than 15, but let's call a spade a spade. Did you call Joshua an ethnic cleanser of the Canaanites? Did you read Deuterotemy? This is way too one-sided.
I'm very much against all religion. But, I am EXTRA against people who defend islam in the name of tolerance. Cultural suicide. Consult the Assyrians or Persia for reference.
[It doesn't show. Aren't you following an intolerant religion yourself by trying to fish for a Bosnian who happened to be born Muslim to be a fanatic and look for a religious motivation every time Muslims fight be they Palestinians or Lebanese or Chechnyans. I believe they call this reducto ad absurdum type analysis or reductionism and as someone studying something as complex as economics, you should probe deeper.
Saying you are anti-Nazi and ignoring crimes committed against Muslims or focusing on the suffering of others in the world shows an obsession that you've had for a very long time. I don't want to debate this any longer. It is getting very old.
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| I am sorry you had a hard time, I think immigration should only be accessed by people who seem educated and moderate from wherever, but ignoring the role the West has played in the mess including the death of those of that gunman's background is a large part of the problem. |
You are talking out of your ass. I'm 100% non-interventionist. I am totally opposed to every military, or other, action that the West has done in non-Western lands. I am very aware that they hate us for both what we have done to them AND that we are not muslim (while you only see the one). I say so all the bloody time. That doesn't mean that we have to "tolerate" their hate. It does mean that 1) they need to be kept away, regardless of how 'diverse' you think that they are and 2) we need to keep to ourselves.
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| You are trying to cover up by your ommission genocide, warcrimes committed against a people. |
What omission? Dude, are you high, like, right now? A guy kills people in a mall in America for what seems to be likely jihadist reasons, and all the non-muslims fall over themselves to cover up the truth, and I'm supposed to talk about a war in Bosnia? Get a grip.
Simple question. Are you saying that what he did is 'understandable' because he is a muslim from the former Yugoslavia? Really? I'm waiting for all the Vietnamese shooting up malls, and Germans spraying El Al counters in LA.
As much as you can not allow yourself to admit it, islam IS the problem. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| A guy kills people in a mall in America for what seems to be likely jihadist reasons |
Would you be able to give us a round-up of what you think are the pieces of evidence pointing to "jidadist reasons"? As far as I can tell, all we've got so far is that he claimed to have a vision of a horse several years ago, and that he told his girlfriend that the day of his crimes would be a "very happy" one. Frankly, I don't find this entirely convincing, and I am someone who is not completely close-minded about it being a religious crime.
Last edited by On the other hand on Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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I believe they call this reducto ad absurdum type analysis or reductionism and as someone studying something as complex as economics, you should probe deeper.
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I believe "reductionism" is the correct word you are looking for, not redoctio ad absurdum.
RAA is a legitimate debating technique, in which you show that consistent application of someone's principles would lead to results that no one would want to accept.
A: I think that it should be against the law to insult anyone's religious beliefs!!
B: I see. So, if some guy in a mental hospital thinks that his night table is God Incarnate, and I say that that idea is ridiculous, you think I should go to jail? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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I believe they call this reducto ad absurdum type analysis or reductionism and as someone studying something as complex as economics, you should probe deeper.
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I believe "reductionism" is the correct word you are looking for, not redoctio ad absurdum.
RAA is a legitimate debating technique, in which you show that consistent application of someone's principles would lead to results that no one would want to accept.
A: I think that it should be against the law to insult anyone's religious beliefs!!
B: I see. So, if some guy in a mental hospital thinks that his night table is God Incarnate, and I say that that idea is ridiculous, you think I should go to jail? |
By reductio ad absurdum and reductionism, I am saying he is going into the absurb by trying to use a Serbian site to show a Bosnian Muslim who was 18 years old sans barbe (beard) was a fanatic. I looked for a police statement finding that. His argumentation leaves it impossible for one to reason. One can also say it simply ends up in a Byzantine discussion.
A gunman shoots someone and happens to be born Muslim, so one must find a website that hints at some jihad. It is ridiculous, it is absurd. It can be taken that way. Reductionism is also applicable, because he is reducing things to one element a gunman plus being born Muslim and non-Muslim targets it must connect to Islam and nothing else.
However, I do appreciate your comments and your take on it.
I think as human beings we need to see that a body count of over 100,000 on the Bosnian side if one were trying to connect barbarism to a certain religious group and played a numbers game the Christians would look worse. However, what the world needs is not finger pointing but rather healing the breach, the divide and finding words such as shalom, peace, pax rather than belli or war. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| [No, you don't seem to care when Chechnyan civilians get killed. I never saw you mention Bosnians or Chechnyan civilians. Why? That is very bad, man. |
Are you sure? I never see you post about the third world conditions Indians in Canada live in. That must mean you don't care about Indians in Canada. Maybe you are Indianophopic, or anti-Indian. Dude, grow some compassion? Don't you refer to yourself as an intellectual?
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| [No, man. Saying you are anti-Nazi doesn't mean anything if you do not mention the fact that Bosnians died in mass graves, Srebrenica, Chechnyan women have been raped ad nauseum, Grozny was bombed like crazy. That is far worse than the stuff you have posted about, but I never see you mention these people. Why don't you do some research into what the Russians did in Chechnya if you want to talk about terrorism. Yes, I am aware of Beslan, but we hear about Beslan but not about Grozny. |
Grozny has nothing to do with anything I post about. You are trying to change the subject to something you feel comfortable discussing (cause you apparently are fully totally ignorant with islam). I do not think that America should have done anything then. That is the backyard of Europe. America should keep to herself. As should the rest of the world.
I'm actually very well aware about Chechnya. Disgusting. But what does that have to do with terrorism in America? Nothing. Totally nothing. If that is the big issue the frothing types are on about, they should focus their anger at Russia. It has fully nothing to do with us.
BTW, when America was bombing Yugo, who were they trying to protect???
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| [So you are against Islam. Why do you have to post ad nauseum about your jihad or crusade against Islam. We get it. |
I actually post about quite a bit of things. Take a trip down memory lane, via the search function, to see the wide variety of topics that I have started in the past month. Some have to do with islam, but I try to keep it balanced. People only ever argue with me about islam, so I'm forced to reply about it more than other subjects, like Chavez, who is my next favorite punching bag. Now, if big_bird is willing to get off her cowardly arse and openly start supporting Chavez again, well, I'll have fun with her instead.
BTW, mo' married a 7 year old. Not 15, not 13. 7. And anybody who does it is a bloody freak. BUT, I will only be attacked for pointing out that the "profit" did it.
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| [It doesn't show. Aren't you following an intolerant religion yourself |
Yes, my 'religion' is very intolerant. Very, very, very, very. I do not believe that tolerance is a virtue, because, well, I'm not a total idiot. As in, The Idiot. That aside, I've never hidden that I'm intolerant of lots of things, including islam, but not exclusively islam. If you believe in the value of individual human life, then I am tolerant of you. If you don't, I'm not. Simple equation.
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| Saying you are anti-Nazi and ignoring crimes committed against Muslims or focusing on the suffering of others in the world shows an obsession that you've had for a very long time. |
I have an obsession with what will be the single largest issue in the West in the next 100 years. Europe is at a crossroads of being assimilated or violently ejecting the imperialists. Canada, now, has as the second largest growing group muslims. We need to wake the *beep* up to the Borg in our midst.
Focusing on the suffering of others? Please. I've railed about Iraq many a time on this site. Also NKorea, and Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Chechnya, Russia, America, Canada, Sudan, and many, many others. Again, it is only when I slam islam that the multicult hounds come out.
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| You are trying to cover up by your ommission genocide, warcrimes committed against a people. |
What omission? Dude, are you high, like, right now? A guy kills people in a mall in America for what seems to be likely jihadist reasons, and all the non-muslims fall over themselves to cover up the truth, and I'm supposed to talk about a war in Bosnia? Get a grip.
If tolerance is your highest virtue, I have an issue with YOU, even more than islam. |
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